Transcript of News X joint interview on the Russia-China relationship

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NewsX: 0:00
Russian President Vladimir Putin held talks with his Chinese counterpart Xi Jinping, continuing the annual tradition to speak around the new year. In a video conference, Xi expressed his readiness to guide China-Russia relations to a new height. Meanwhile, Putin, calling Xi a dear friend, said Russia and China were building ties based on friendship, mutual trust and support, despite external pressure. Reiterating his intentions over a peace deal with Ukraine, Putin also told Xi that any settlement must respect Russian interests. Beijing has been accused by the US of building up Moscow’s war machine by providing critical components for the conflict in Ukraine.

0:43
The two leaders’ dialogue comes hours after Donald Trump swore in as the US president. The two leaders have each publicly expressed a hope to reset fraught relations with the US under the new administration. However, Trump has held different views. He has warned that Putin will– big trouble will come to Putin if he does not strike a deal to end the war in Ukraine. Additionally he has threatened tariffs on Beijing, calling it an abuser. Such complexities put the fate of the ongoing Russia-Ukraine war at stake.

For more on this discussion, the Russia-Ukraine conflict and President Trump, we are joined by two guests: Gilbert Doctorow, Russian affairs expert in Brussels; and Professor A.K. Pasha, international affairs expert here in New Delhi. Gilbert Doctorow, I wanted to come to you first. What have we found out about this discussion with Xi Jinping and Vladimir Putin? And what does Trump’s response tell us?

Gilbert Doctorow, PhD: 1:51
The discussion, the telephone conversation, it was not just telephone, it was video as well. So it was a virtual meeting of the two. This was featured in last night’s state news on Russian television as being one of the most important developments of the day. Indeed, the two leaders were celebrating the achievements of 2024 when their mutual trade reached the figure of $245 billion, which was a new record, and really is quite impressive.

2:25
Russia is now the fifth-largest trading partner of China, and China is the single largest trading partner of Russia. This achievement is indicative of the hopelessness and foolishness of President Trump threatening either of these countries with punitive tariffs or with new sanctions, should they not come to heel and follow the dictates of Washington. The errors of the Biden administration, which had a foreign policy based– was values-based, so to speak, that foreign policy seems to be identical with the first moves of Donald Trump in what is supposed to be a realpolitik and interest-based foreign policy for the United States. So at the moment there’s no distinction.

3:23
Mr. Biden, by his pressure on both countries, forced them into one another’s arms. They were not natural allies, but they have become very warm colleagues in building a multi-polar world. I fear that Mr Trump has not learned the lesson of this, and in his using threatening language to both or either of these countries, he is working against American interests.

NewsX: 3:50
Professor A.K. Pasha, staying on Trump and his language as Gilbert was talking about, Trump has also said that Putin is destroying Russia in refusing a deal with Ukraine. In what sense, if in any sense, could this be seen as true?

A.K. Pasha:
Well, President Trump, even during his campaign, for the last six months, he has been highlighting the need to end the Ukraine war on a number of occasions, and he has given hopes and raised expectations of many people, not only in America, that this protracted war should come to an end. But now he seems to be under the influence of the so-called deep state which he wanted to contain.

4:52
But you see, the last four months, rigorous support by the former Biden administration of giving missiles and extraordinary support to Zelensky in his war efforts, the Kursk offensive, all that the American think tanks and other people were articulating that it has strengthened the hands of Zelensky in particular on the peace talks. But that doesn’t have, that has had no impact on Putin and the Russian offensive. So in that way, Russia is now dictating from a position of strength, or the inroads they have made in eastern Ukraine.

Secondly, you see the more pressure is brought or delayed the negotiations are, the more the bond between China and Russia will get strengthened. Even otherwise, even if the Ukraine issue is resolved, this is just as China has stood through thick and thin despite enormous pressure from the United States, to break the link. You know, once there is peace on the Ukraine front and sanctions are lifted, if and when, you know, this will only make the bond much stronger, because Asia has to pay back if there is pressure from the Trump administration on China, on Taiwan, or any other issue in the Indo-Pacific, South China Sea, et cetera.

6:34
So this bond, in fact, because of the contradictory policy of the Americans, both during Biden and now the unfolding policy from Trump, is not going to loosen or weaken the Russian-Chinese bond, more so because their policy of strengthening BRICS has become very attractive to countries across the world, from Latin America to Africa, Asia, etc.

So in that way, even Trump, with an attractive offer and the peacekeeping troops stationing, so on and so forth, will not, I think, remove the Russian doubts about what exactly Trump has in mind, if there is eventual peace talks and an agreement based on what Russia thinks are its prime national interest in Ukraine and on the assurances that NATO would not intrude into Ukraine and near its border to pose a direct threat on its borders.

7:47
And also more importantly is the new development in Europe, because more and more NATO countries, especially Germany, they want to have economic relations, gas and oil and exports with China. So in that way, Trump has to accommodate the NATO desire, EU desire. to have relations with both these antagonists, which American policy is trying to divide and separate.

NewsX: 8:18
Gilbert Doctorow, I just wanted to ask you one last question. Trump’s relationship with Putin was very public, especially in his first campaign. And we’ve even seen Trump now reach out to President Xi Jinping, including an invite to his inauguration, which he did not accept, but his VP attended. How do you see Trump’s relationship with these two leaders developing, especially with Trump’s such an unorthodox style?

Pasha:
No, this will only strengthen the relationship between–

NewsX:
Sorry, sorry, A.K. Pasha. I asked that question to Gilbert. Apologies.

Doctorow: 8:59
The alleged closeness between Putin and Trump in his first administration was propaganda, slanderous propaganda that was raised in the Hillary Clinton campaign, and that was supported by fake information that was passed to her campaign by the security, by the intelligence agencies in the United States. There was no closeness. And in fact, the period of Trump’s first administration was a constant downward spiral in the relationship.

The situation today, the notion that Trump has some kind of special gift for communication and personal rapport with Putin, his utter nonsense. You will note that among the relatively few foreign leaders that Donald Trump invited to the inauguration, the Russians refused to come. Not just Putin didn’t come, he didn’t send anybody. And that is a perfect statement of the actual relations between the two countries. They are at a nadir.

10:13
The notion that Mr. Trump can pull a rabbit out of a hat, can bring the two warring parties, Ukraine and Russia, to sit at a negotiating table– when one of these countries is headed by an illegitimate ruler whose signature on a treaty will be worthless, I mean, I’m speaking now about Zolensky, who outlasted his legitimate period in office– the notion that these two will sit together and conclude an agreement with Mr. Trump looking on and making his bid for a Nobel Peace Prize is utter nonsense. It’s a delusion.

And I think it’s rather sad that a man who has made his case to the American public on realpolitik and realism and pragmatism, has made his first moves in the direction of Russia on the same delusional information and misunderstanding of Russia that guided the Biden administration. Mr Trump–

NewsX: 11:20
Thank you very much, Gilbert Doctorow and Professor A.K. Pasha for that discussion.