Transcript of ‘Judging Freedom,’ 4 March edition

Transcript submitted by a reader

Napolitano: 0:32
Hi everyone, Judge Andrew Napolitano here for Judging Freedom. Today is Tuesday, March 4th, 2025. Professor Gilbert Doctorow will be here with us in just a moment on Donald Trump Outfoxes Europe. But first this.

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Napolitano: 1:57
Professor Doctorow, welcome here, my dear friend. Thank you for joining us. What has been the reaction in Moscow to the dust-up or whatever you want to call it that occurred in the Oval Office in the White House between President Trump and President Zelensky on Friday?

2:19
I think there’s general pleasure that Donald Trump has been true to his word, and these remarks have been made, and has shown that what he was saying about improving relations with Russia were not just empty words, but he’s prepared to move on them. And if that means parting ways with the Ukrainians, then so be it. So this was very optimistic news for them.

Napolitano: 2:50
What was the reaction in Europe? I think we know from the comments of President Macron and Prime Minister Starmer, but from your visage in Brussels.

Doctorow: 3:03
I have in the past few weeks been commenting on the unimaginable stupidity of the collection of people called the leaders of the EU and in particular of Macron, who steps out front and of Keir Starmer, though not a member of the EU, has stepped up to be the leader of Europe in defense. But we have moved on from observations of people like myself from the sidelines saying that the leadership in Europe is not living in the real world, but they’re living in a bubble. What we have now is the endgame,and they have created it for themselves. Just note that Zelensky did himself in by directly challenging the President of the United States, lèse majesté. This is something that no one can get away with.

4:08
That he came wearing his usual outfit didn’t help. But the Russians in particular paid a lot of attention to these nuances, whether or not Zelensky was satisfying propriety rules of the Americans, of the age and the traditions of a Donald Trump. But let’s move to the substantive issues. What they have just done in Europe on Sunday, meeting with Starmer, was to repeat the disastrous mistake of Zelensky and to directly challenge the president of the United States as if they didn’t hear him say that he is not prepared to give a backup security guarantee to Ukraine. He said that in plain language, and Keir Starmer … he didn’t.

Napolitano: 5:05
You think that President Zelensky’s behavior, so widely criticized and so nicely encapsulated by you just now was intended for domestic Ukrainian audiences? He couldn’t possibly have thought that by picking a fight with Donald Trump, he was going to have a happy ending.

Doctorow:
Well, surely there were some in his retinue who were pleased to see that their man had spunk and were standing up to the Americans. Then there are other people with more brains like the Ukrainian ambassador to Washington who covered her face in shame and embarrassment that her boss is behaving so stupidly and against the interests of his own country.

5:49
Now what’s happening in Europe is they’ve just done the same thing. And in case we had doubts about it, today’s news in the “Financial Times” and elsewhere informs us that Macron has taken the initiative to seize the 200 – threatening to seize the 200 billion dollars in Russian assets that are frozen in Europe, in case the ceasefire is violated by the Russians. There are a couple of problems with this. First, there is no ceasefire and there will be no ceasefire because, again, Macron, Starmer, are not listening. They’re talking, but not listening.

6:32
The plain news of coming from Moscow, no, there will be no ceasefire. We want to go straight to a peace settlement. We don’t want 30 days. So, [that he] wants to protect Ukrainian interests by threatening to seize Russian assets is utterly foolish. But I don’t want to stand on foolishness, not foolishness. What we’re talking about is the likely end of American security guarantees to Europe.

These fools have by insisting that they stand by Ukraine because it reinforces European security, they are themselves with their own hands, destroying the security by insulting, defying the president of the United States.

Napolitano: 7:25
I mean, just last week, President Macron was talking about seizing the interest in bank accounts generated by these Russian deposits, an act of theft, of course. Now, you say he’s talking about seizing the principal in the bank accounts, a greater act of theft, and is doing so shamelessly and unlawfully. Of course it’s unlawful, it’s theft.

Doctorow:
Well, this again, it’s not my opinion. I’m just repeating to you what was on the front page of today’s “Financial Times”.

Napolitano:
Right, Right, right, right.

Doctorow:
The logic of this is beyond imagination. He is ready to upset the value of the dollar. It is a threat to the dollar if they seize those assets. How can he expect the Americans to go along with this? He’s living in a different world and he’ll soon be out on the street. I don’t see, Judge, how any of these people can survive the destruction of European security that they are now bringing on the heads.

Napolitano: 8:35
After President Zelensky left the White House, he flew to London where he met with Sir Keir Starmer with the King, and then he stayed, and some European leaders, including President Macron of France and Chancellor Scholz of Germany were there. And then at the end of that meeting, Sir Keir made a statement. Chris, cut number one.

Starmer:
Our starting point must be to put Ukraine in the strongest possible position now so that they can negotiate from a position of strength. And we are doubling down in our support. Yesterday evening, the UK signed a 2.2 billion pound loan to provide more military aid to Ukraine, backed not by the British taxpayer, but by the profits from frozen Russian assets.

9:34
And today I’m announcing a new deal, which allows Ukraine to use 1.6 billion pounds of UK export finance to buy more than 5,000 air defence missiles, which will be made in Belfast, creating jobs in our brilliant defense sector. This will be vital for protecting critical infrastructure now, and strengthen Ukraine in securing the peace when it comes.

Napolitano: 10:03
This is really hogwash, is it not? I mean, if they were to make these missiles, they wouldn’t be ready until 2030. It’s inconceivable the war will still be being fought then. It was he who claimed, as well as President Macron, that they would seize the interest on the frozen Russian assets. Take it from there, please, Professor. How was that statement that Sir Keir made viewed by the Kremlin?

Doctorow: 10:32
Well, again, I think with great amusement, because they’re aware, as I just said, that these people are self-destructing. If we heard, when we listen to what Keir Starmer is saying, he would be perfectly cast for a film about World War I.

It was people like this, so utterly blind, who brought the whole world, brought Europe into its civil war that destroyed a whole generation of young people. This is the type of fool. But again, my opinion is not what is valuable. I’m talking politics, not opinions. In political terms, what he’s saying is self-destruction because he’s going directly against the president of the United States.

11:16
And what that means in America was demonstrated last Friday, I think it was, maybe it was Saturday morning, when Lindsey Graham, of all people, flip-flopped on support for Zelensky and for Ukraine in general because of lèse majesté, because this man, this little nobody from Ukraine, had dared to engage in a hot dispute with the president of the United States. So I think that if, as is possible, President Trump this evening speaks of a disengagement from NATO, This is the right moment to do it, to strike when the iron is hot, because Americans that have political savvy will have certainly understood, as I did, that Starmer and Macron and Ursula von der Leyen, they’re going up against the United States. They’re going up against the clear statements of the president of the United States. You can’t do that. You cannot do that and survive.

Napolitano: 12:29
Well, you are right that the rumors are rampant that he will make headlines by announcing tonight our withdrawal when he addresses the joint session of Congress President Trump, of course, of whom I speak, announcing withdrawal from NATO. We’ll see. But I can’t help but playing this clip from Senator Graham, which we entitle “Then and Now”. Chris, cut number eight. 1

Graham:
I want to tell you and your people, you’re the ally I’ve been hoping for all my life. Not one American has died defending Ukraine. You’ve taken our weapons and you’ve kicked their ass, and I’m very proud to have you as our ally.

So, what do I think? Complete, utter disaster. What I saw in the Oval Office was disrespectful And I don’t know if we can ever do business with Zelensky again. He either needs to resign and send somebody over that we can do business with or he needs to change.

Napolitano: 13:27
Does anybody take him seriously in Europe?

Doctorow:
No, of course not. He’s a laughing stock. But what he’s saying here is indicative of the kind of wave of patriotism and pride that Trump can ride if he indeed makes the announcements about withdrawal from NATO.

I’d just like to add one point here, because many people speak about withdrawal from NATO as a case for isolationism. I don’t agree. Trump has a different vision, and unfortunately too many people who are married to their own past and to various verities from that past identify a commitment to the world as being through the establishments that have grown up over the last 70, 80 years.

14:20
Well, it doesn’t have to be that way. I think that we are about to witness a new Yalta, whether it’ll be a meeting of the big three, Russia, China, and the United States, or four with India in it. I think that’s more likely. And there will be a new global agreement on spheres of influence and how these powers get together to enforce the peace around the world. I think that that is not isolationism. So people are missing–

Napolitano: 14:48
I agree with everything you’re saying, Professor. I would add to it, it’s a manifestation of realism, the honest recognition of the sovereignty of other countries and their legitimate security needs — rather than the neocon, George Bush, Victoria Nuland going back to Woodrow Wilson, “we’re going to make the world safe for democracy”. [glitch] [We’ll direct how to live].

Doctorow:
Okay.

Napolitano: 15:22
So I think that would be Donald Trump’s dream, to have another Yalta. And I agree with you on the desirability of the presence of Prime Minister Modi.

Back to President Zelensky, if I might. Do you think he fears for his life if he were to come out in favor of a ceasefire? He does have that hard-right militia group embedded in his government which foolishly believes that they can defeat the Russians militarily, does he not?

Doctorow:
That’s been a long-standing situation. There are people going back a couple of years who said that there’s people in his entourage, people who are the forces behind the throne, who are … neo-Nazis or ultra-right nationalists, who were saying that if he should conclude a peace with Russia on less than honorable terms, that he would be strung up.

But I think the situation has gotten worse for him. Before he could say– okay, so he gets on a plane, he goes somewhere. Where’s he going now? He’s not going to be welcome. I don’t think that Starmer is going to be so keen on giving him a home.

16:40
He is now shown to be useless. And his people will have a second reason for finishing him up, that he no longer adds any value to that situation. He can’t provide arms. The United States, because of his behavior in the White House, has just cut the immediate delivery arms. So it’s time for him to go, either walking out or being carried out in a coffin.

Napolitano: 17:13
We have often speculated that the State Department would manipulate his departure and maneuver in a more rational, more universally understood and acceptable replacement. I think General Zaluzhny’s name is often mentioned. It brings to mind the fact that there’s no inspector general on the ground in Ukraine, and that once the billions in cash and hundreds of billions in military equipment get there, there’s no control as to what happens to it. I mean, is there universal belief in Europe that Zelensky is a wealthy man from stolen assets and has numerous homes to which he could retire, including in Paris and Miami.

Doctorrow: 18:06
Yes, once he loses the MI6 security detail, I don’t think his life is worth two cents. There are so many Ukrainians who have their own private reason for murdering him. He has killed a million people or maimed a million of his compatriots. Among that million, there are relatives who would like to see him in a coffin. So I think he’s got a serious security problem.

Napolitano:
You are not the first person on this program to refer to his security detail as MI6. We all know what that is, British intelligence. It is not Ukraine security?

Doctorow: 18:47
Well, he would have been dead a long time ago if it had been Ukrainian security. That could have been infiltrated. But the British are much more disciplined, and they provided them with excellent security.

Napolitano:
So when he was at the White House on Friday, MI6 was there with him.

Doctorow:
Yeah, so he’s been very well cared for, but I think the game is up. And as Donald Trump has demonstrated, people who are no longer the flavor of the day, they lose their security details.

Napolitano:
Yeah, we know that. What will happen to NATO if Trump pulls out? Whether he announces it tonight, does it slowly, announces it in June, whatever. What will remain of NATO?

19:26
Nothing. Nothing. The question is, what will remain of those 19 leaders who met in London? I don’t see how they can stay in power, because by their very action they have precipitated the destruction of NATO. It didn’t have to happen or certainly not in this timeframe. But by stupidly ignoring the words of the President of the United States and his commitment not to be dragged into the next world war by Europeans who are keen to continue the Ukraine war, this doesn’t fly.

So these people, as I said, by their actions, they are jeopardizing European security. And there are certainly people who will not tolerate this. But going back to Ukraine, and who will succeed Zelensky, I don’t believe there’ll be a civilian government. From the very beginning, the Russians anticipated that when they first marched, approached Kiev, they expected that the military in Ukraine would revolt against these extreme Italians who had the country by the neck and that the civilian government would be ousted. I think we’re coming back to that scenario.

20:43
You mentioned Zaluzhny. Zaluzhny has just been dismissed by Zelensky as the ambassador in the UK for obvious reasons, because he certainly must be colluding with the Brits on replacing Zelensky with himself. So he’s just been demoted to some absolutely unimportant little ambassadorship in a UN sub-organization.

But that’s not the point. Zaluzhny is no better than Zelensky. He is one more person ready to continue the war to the last Ukrainian and then maybe to the last European. He is not the answer. So the answer will be a capitulation and a military junta that takes over and holds on to power, because the Ukrainians are not ready for democratic election. They’ve been so brainwashed in the last eight years, 10 years, that they cannot yet see reality.

Napolitano: 21:43
A profound statement and a gifted analysis with much gratitude. Thank you for your time, Professor Doctorow. I will look forward to seeing you next week, my friend.

Doctorow:
Good, till then.

Napolitano:
Thank you, until then. Coming up at 10 o’clock this morning, Professor Jeffrey Sachs; at 11 o’clock, Colonel Larry Wilkerson; at noon. I don’t know where he is, but he’s coming to us, Pepe Escobar; at one o’clock, Professor Glenn Diesen; at three o’clock, Aaron Mate; at four o’clock, Professor John Mearshamer.

22:15
Judge Napolitano for “Judging Freedom”.