Transcript of CNN18 (India) interview of 1 September

Transcript submitted by a reader

CNN News18: 0:00
–the big summit that’s taken place in Tianjin on the sidelines of the SCO summit from Mr. Modi and even the Russian President Vladimir Putin held two significant bilateral meetings that have reaffirmed the enduring strength and depth of the India-Russia strategic relationship. Both leaders have emphasized the multi-dimensional nature of this partnership, a time-tested one at that, which spans critical sectors, which are mainly defense, energy, trade, and technology.

And President Putin has described the ties between the two nations as principled, even multifaceted, noting that over the years the relationship has evolved into a robust framework for cooperation. Echoing these sentiments, Prime Minister Modi has described his interactions with President Putin as always memorable, underscoring the continuous high-level engagement between the two nations.

0:51
While Prime Minister Modi has also reiterated India’s constructive role within the SCO framework, especially when it comes to combating terrorism, even disrupting terror financing in a notable diplomatic snub. Pakistan’s Prime Minister Shahbaz Sharif has appeared isolated during this entire summit. Prime Minister Modi left for New Delhi after a successful China-Japan tour. So all in all, this past week has felt only diplomatic triumph for New Delhi. But let’s also listen in to what Prime Minister Modi had to say in his plenary session at the SCO.

Modi: 1:32 [UNCONFIRMED TRANSLATION]
I would like to say that security, peace and security are the basis of any country. But in this path, terrorism, terrorism and terrorism are big challenges. Terrorism is not only a threat to the country, but also a simple challenge for full independence. It is not just a challenge for the country, but a challenge for the entire humanity. The role of the SCO Reds is important. At this time, India has led the Joint Information Operation, initiative.

We have supported the organization and have also supported the Indian government for four decades to create the terrorism. So many mothers lost their children and so many children were–

CNN News18: 3:27
Gilbert Doctorow, who is an author, also specializes in Russian relations, is joining me live on the broadcast. Many thanks to you, Gilbert, for joining in on CNN News 18. We just heard some very critical points being made by the Indian Prime Minister in his plenary session at the SCO, especially when it comes to condemning terrorism and double standards on terrorism. Before I deep-dive into the bilateral that’s taken place between Prime Minister Modi and President Putin, share your thoughts on how India has come down on the issue of terrorism.

Also not to forget that the SCO declaration has managed to condemn the Pehelgam terror attack as well this time around, which India is of course seeing as a diplomatic thing.

Doctorow: 4:07
The Shanghai Cooperation Organization unites Eurasia. Eurasia has many common interests. Eurasia also has differences, some of which led to armed conflict, as the recent clash between Pakistan and India illustrated. It would be unrealistic to expect that 20, 25 countries would all see the same views, would all have the same positions on most everything.

And so it is that there is conflict among the some of the member states of the Shanghai Cooperation Organization. Nonetheless, it was extremely important that the declaration today condemned the attack in Punjab and the terrorism which emanates, as everyone knows, from Pakistan. That was an important victory. I would say for India in the group. Sorry.

CNN News18:
You meant Kashmir, I believe, because–

Doctorow:
Ah, Kashmir, yes. Yes, you’re correct. The point is that this was a diplomatic victory for India and theres good reason for Mr. Modi to be proud of it.

CNN News18: 5:22
What is your understanding of the bilateral relationship between Moscow and New Delhi at a time when Donald Trump is accusing India and Prime Minister Modi of funding Putin’s war chest, calling Ukraine as Modi’s war.

Prime Minister, on the other hand, has in fact, of course, called upon the Russian president urging him to bring peace or to choose peace, rather. And that’s been his stance always when he said that this is not an era of war, something he reiterated this time around. But Russia has been equally respectable and mindful of the Indian Prime Minister’s views on the war.

Doctorow: 6:03
I think the basic common view of international relations among the member states of the Shanghai Cooperation Organization is realism, the realistic school. In the realistic school, countries look after their own national interests.

And national interests do collide. The case of India with respect to the United States and Russia is a case in point. India has strong commercial attachment to the United States, has been partly dependent on the United States for various arms deliveries. It has also had both strong commercial and military geopolitical interests shared with Russia.

6:48
So these sides have traditionally been in a balance. India has walked a tightrope, I would say, for decades and decades. And that is nothing new. What is new, of course, is Mr. Trump’s destruction of 25 years of American diplomacy with respect to India to bring it into a grouping for containment of Chinese expansion and economic growth. And that is the important outcome of his tariffs, the tariffs on India, which have attracted a lot of attention, but I think have been misunderstood.

My reading of Mr. Trump is that he is actively destroying the supports for United States hegemony and global domination. That is his intent. We will only know if that is the case 10, 20 years from now when archives are open. In the meantime, this is a supposition which I urge you to consider.

CNN News18: 7:46
You’ve in fact made a very critical point over there because many are talking about how Trump has overnight almost dismantled this 25 years of a painstakingly created relationship between New Delhi and Washington, one that was managed through various bipartisan efforts.

And I’m going to quickly bring in my correspondent, Siddhant, who also is joining us from the newsroom. So Siddhant, when you look at the way the White House has been reacting, what is one to make of that, given that many have said that if it was Biden who pushed Russia towards China, it is Trump who is pushing India towards China?

Siddhant: 8:26
Well, yes, that’s right Akanksha. But also Akanksha would like to add what you just said, what I could read from the statements that are coming, that we are getting to hear from the senior Trump officials.

So as far as the policy level is concerned Akanksha, those individuals are really committed to continuing the relationship with India and perhaps giving efforts to improve ties. Why I am saying this, because just last week we had two plus two official level dialogue with the United States, and perhaps that the release, this is a State Department’s release which did mention, which has mentioned of Quad and deepening cooperation in nuclear energy, compact was also mentioned, etc. etc.

9:16
But when it comes to people around president Trump, when it comes to people like Peter Navarro, hardcore MAGA people, then their commentary, their remarks are below the belt. They are doing everything to spoil this relationship. So as I said you know I won’t say that everybody in the US administration right now is kind of giving efforts to spoil the relationship. There are people, there are strategic experts Akanksha, many are speaking to you and other of our colleagues here in the newsroom and in fact you know they really want to, you know, continue with the relationship, and they want this relationship to grow. So, you know, so that’s what I could understand from the Trump administration and the US administration at this point.

CNN News18: 10:08
I want to take that point forward with Gilbert as well. Gilbert, Siddhant has made a very significant point over there. Donald Trump’s view is perhaps not the wider view of the United States. And I want to quote what the US embassy has gone on to talk about. In fact, soon after Peter Navarro’s statement shook all of India as we woke up, when he in fact again attacked India’s Prime Minister, he’s also tried to create a wedge in terms of the cast.

In fact, I wouldn’t even want to go where he has been. It’s the lowest ebb of the kind of rhetoric we’ve seen come out of White House. But the US Embassy in India has sent out a very heartening statement which talks about India and the US relationship being at the forefront of the 21st century relationship. They’ve also in fact sent out a quotation of Marco Rubio that says that “the enduring friendship between our two people is the bedrock of our cooperation and propels us forward as we realize the tremendous potential of our economic relationship.” So Gilbert, I want to bring you in on this divided view of India within the Trump administration.

And it’s clearly to do with MAGA versus the ones who are at the helm of affairs in the White House. What is your view, and what could be the impact of this for the Republicans ahead in the years ahead?

Doctorow: 11:30
There’s only one view that counts in the US White House, and that is Mr. Trump’s. I would not listen to anything that Mr. Rubio says regarding relations with India, because he is not making the policy. His boss is. The point is that Mr. Trump is not aimless, is not changing views from day to day. He is a student of Henry Kissinger, {however] much that may surprise your audience.

He has followed– and this was clear in his first term in office in the first year when he did, when his national securities strategy was issued. This was a Kissinger policy. Henry Kissinger’s fingerprints were all over Mr. Trump’s thinking then, and [I think] that persists today. India will have good relations with the United States after this spat is ended, but it will not continue in the creation of a quadrilateral grouping in the Indo-Pacific.

It will not be part of a block that is directed against China. And that is precisely what Mr. Trump’s tariff attack on India is all about.

CNN News18: 12:42
But, and that’s why I want to bring you in. Has the tariff attack exposed the US hypocrisy? Because they want to accuse us of war profiteering. What about the war profiteering that the US is doing through companies like Lockheed Martin in Ukraine?

Doctorow:
Don’t listen to words. Look at actions. Mr. Trump’s words are intended to deceive everyone, particularly his opponents, domestically and abroad. They are not the pointers to his actions. He will come back to India, but he is not coming back to the quadrilateral. You will note the latest reports are that he will not attend the quadrilateral summit.

13:21
That is his point. He wants to end blocs, and he wants to recreate– as Mr. Kissinger indicated in his 1994 book, “Diplomacy”– he wants to recreate the pre-World War I situation in global governance, where there was multi-plurality, where there were individual states, including powerful states, that looked after their national interests, but not in blocs.

CNN News18: 13:49
Stay with me, Gilbert. I’m going to also request Siddhant to continue staying with us. Let’s also take our viewers through the key highlights from Prime Minister’s statement at the SCO summit.

In fact he’s delivered some very crucial messages especially using SCO as an acronym to begin with SECURITY. There can be no double standards on terrorism, is what Prime Minister maintained. Terrorism is a shared challenge for humanity. He said that India has seen the heinous face of terrorism in Pahelgam on 22nd of April. He also went on to say that we have to spell it out clearly, that there’s going to be no compromise on terrorism. And that any open support to terrorism by any of the countries, whether they are sponsoring it or not, is unacceptable.

14:35
As far as CONNECTIVITY, the “C” of SCO is concerned, he went on to say that connectivity that bypasses sovereignty loses trust between all the member nations. India is working on Chabahar port for connectivity, which is why Iran’s role becomes extremely crucial. And that working on international north-south transport corridor is important as well, a reminder for SCO to push that forward. These projects will boost links with Afghanistan, Central Asia as well.

15:07
As far as OPPORTUNITY is concerned, India is following the mantra of “reform, perform, transform” as well. He also went on to invite all the member states, even the ones who are in the observer position or the guest nations, to become part of India’s growth story, to become part of India’s development journey as well.

Here’s what the India big wins are, but I’m going to quickly go across to Suzanne to bring in a word as far as the big wins are concerned, let’s take you through what the SCO declaration had to state. It strongly condemned the Pehelgam terror attack to begin with.

That’s been our diplomatic victory. SCO has called for combating cross-border movement of terrorists as well. It has echoed India’s line, which says that no double standards on terrorism should be tolerated. Of course, there was a direct reference to not just Pakistan, even China, which has been aiding Pakistan with direct intelligence information, something we observed during Operation Sindhur as well as you as a firm determination to continue the fight against terrorism. It also condemned the use of terror groups for mercenary purposes as well.

16:16
Let’s quickly go back to Siddhan to continue to stay with us. Siddhan, as far as connectivity is concerned, we’ve of course touched upon terrorism. Take us through what are the expectations for India and how significant is going to be Chabahar port, given the way we are seeing disturbances in that entire region, as far as the ones surrounding Iran are concerned, not to forget even Afghanistan and the way China and the United States also now want to make inroads.

CNNNews18 – Siddhan: 16:44
Definitely, you know, connectivity is very, very important. In fact, the kind of projection India is doing for itself, the role that in fact the world wants India to play in the coming years, perhaps for that India needs to be well connected, Akanksha, whether it’s Vladivostok-Chennai corridor, whether it’s North-South transit corridor, which will give Indian goods access to markets in Afghanistan and Central Asia, whether it’s IMAC, Akanksha, there’s a lot of work that has been put in by the Indian side as far as the IMAC corridor is concerned.

17:23
So you know, connectivity is a major focus of the Indian side, has always been the major focus of the Indian side. Also, you know, when, … after the withdrawal of US troops, Akanksha, from Afghanistan, India has been sending consignment to Afghanistan time and again, its wheat, medicines, etc. And those consignments are reaching Afghanistan via Chabahar port. So, you know, Chabahar port gets activated and via Chabahar it reaches Afghanistan. So India is using Chabahar port. In fact, there were two two agreements also which were signed last year between India and Iran. India pledged more money for the project. So connectivity is definitely a focus area of the Indian government.

CNN News18:
Gilbert, I want to quickly bring you in on the aspect of connectivity in this Trumpian climate, which has made it extremely adverse for India and Iran to operate together. Many say that had India not bowed down to Trump’s demands of reducing its oil purchases from Iran under the previous Trump administration, we could have perhaps set the benchmark much earlier. But what is your view, especially when it comes to forward movement or ensuring forward movement on the Chabahar port, given that Iran is also directly in the line of fire with Donald Trump?

Doctorrow: 18:49
Of course, this is important. Iran is very dependent on the support, both diplomatic support and economic support of fellow members of the Shanghai security organization. India has a prospect, a possibility of stepping up imports of Iranian petroleum, which would be an important assistance.

But I’d like to mention one country that you’ve omitted: Armenia. It was quite surprising that Armenia had a bilateral discussion with Vladimir Putin on the sidelines of the SCO summit. And that is directly related to your interests as India in the North-South corridor, because Armenia as a big player in the in the Southern Caucasus has a decisive role in whether this succeeds.

19:44
In that respect you have to consider the Europeans, because Armenia is being directed against Russia, like France. So the situation is quite complex.

CNN News18:
It’s also of advantage to India, given that Armenia is a direct counter to Azerbaijan, a country that has directly pledged support to Pakistan also during Operation Sindhu.

Doctorow:
Yes, these are very complex relations. Fortunately, a forum like SCO provides the opportunity for these various leaders to meet and to meet in rapid succession with one another. So that what is discussed between Putin and Pashinyan then becomes a subject for discussion between the Armenians and the Indians [or both persons].

CNN News18: 20:37
Absolutely. I’m going to request you to continue staying with me, Gilbert, a host of talking points, some in fact highlighted by you as well, which we perhaps couldn’t touch upon, Armenia being that very significant factor. Let’s also listen in to the reactions of the Russian president and the Indian prime minister during that much talked about bilateral that took place. Let’s listen.

Modi: [TRANSLATED] 21:02
We have been in constant contact with each other. We have been in constant contact with each other. This December, for our 23rd summit, 140 crore Indian participants are waiting for you. Excellency, this is the depth and breadth of our special and privileged strategic partnership. India and Russia have always walked shoulder to shoulder.

21:26 approx:
Our close cooperation is not only important for the people of both the countries, but also for the peace, stability and prosperity of the world. Your Excellency, we have been discussing the ongoing struggle in Ukraine. We hope that all parties will move forward constructively. We will have to find a way to end the conflict as soon as possible and establish a peaceful state. This is a call of humanity.

21:53 approx:
Excellency, once again I thank you from the bottom of my heart. Of bilateral cooperation in various areas. Dear Prime Minister, dear friend, Russia and India have been supporting special relations for decades. They are friendly and trustworthy. This is the foundation for the development of our relations in the future.

And these relations have absolutely non-party nature and are supported by the overwhelming majority of the peoples of our countries.

Putin [from subtitles]: 22:25
Today’s meeting is another good opportunity to further strengthen our relations. We can say thtat our relationship is based on principles. There is multifaceted cooperation between us. There is a very trustworthy relationship between Russia and India, one that is not based on politics.