Transcript of ‘Judging Freedom’ edition of 24 September

Transcript submitted by a reader

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HY4T88gIpdw

Napolitano: 0:33
Hi everyone, Judge Andrew Napolitano here for “Judging Freedom”. Today is Wednesday, September 24th, 2024. Professor Gilbert Doctorow will be with us in just a moment on President Trump embraces Ukraine. But first this.
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2:02
Professor Doctorow, good morning and welcome here. Thank you for coming on the show. Thank you for accommodating my schedule. Let’s get right to the hot international news, at least in the West here. As the sun comes up on the East coast of the United States, President Donald Trump yesterday saying that Ukraine can win in all caps, W-I-N, the war against Russia, and retake Crimea and the other areas now under Russian security control. What do you make of that?

Doctorow:
Double talk. Look, my opinion has not changed. I do not say that I am certain. I do not claim that others are wrong, but I think I am onto something quite important when I say that Mr. Trump deceives constantly, misinforms constantly. These are the tools he uses to maintain his independence and to put at arm’s length his many opponents domestically and abroad.

Napolitano: 3:12
Well, what do the Russians think when Trump makes a statement like this? And there’s a lot more to it. “Russia is a paper tiger, NATO”, which of course includes the United States, which is predominantly the United States, “can help Ukraine win the war”. Do you think these are just negotiating techniques?

Doctorow:
I think they have the intent of making fools of his opponents and they very gladly fill that role. The BBC today put without any question whatsoever the statement that Trump has changed sides, that he now backs Ukraine, that Ukraine will retake its territory, they’ve gone in for that. Why not? They are so heavily invested in this story that the Ukraine will win, that Russia will be humiliated, that they will seize at any opportunity, at any straw that Mr. Trump gives them to think that he has joined their side.

4:16
That does not mean he joined their side. I look at the small print. When he said that the Europeans can go ahead and shoot down Russian military aircraft if they are violating the airspace of NATO countries over the Baltic — he was then asked afterwards by a journalist whether the United States would support Europe in this venture, and he said it all depends, depends on the circumstances.

Well, if you’re sitting in London, Paris, Berlin, and you hear him say that, you understand perfectly that you will be on your own. And none of these countries is likely to take his invitation to fire [on] a Russian aircraft and face the wrath of Russia by themselves, which is what you–

Napolitano: 5:08
You missed one country in there which probably is prepared to fire at Russian aircraft and bear the brunt of Putin’s wrath on its own: Poland.

Doctorow:
No, I don’t believe so. I don’t think that Mr. Tusk is that bold or that much a risk-taker to put his country on the line without a firm backing from Washington, which he does not have and will not get.

Napolitano: 5:40
All right, Chris, put up the full screen. You had it there a moment ago. I just want to read the operative language of President Trump’s statement on what he calls “Truth Social”. This is yesterday, Professor Doctorow.

Trump:
“I think Ukraine, with the support of the European Union, is in a position to fight and WIN” [in all caps] “all of Ukraine back in its original form. With time, patience and the financial support of Europe and in particular NATO,” [now I’m editorializing: which includes the United States. Now back to reading] “the original Borders from where this war started is very much an option. Why not?”

Is this his negotiating, in your view, his negotiating technique? And if so, with whom is he negotiating?

Doctorow: 6:33
He is buying time, yet again. Now I’d like to note here that– and it goes back to his remarks in the General Assembly, when he said that he was disappointed that Mr. Putin did not do what the Americans expected, which is to defeat Ukraine in a week. And then he made this taunt that you have quoted, that Russia is possibly a paper tiger. I agree with him. And so far, what is really at issue is Mr. Putin’s way of conducting this war, where Mr. Putin, the lawyer, is at odds with Mr. Putin, the military commander in chief.

Napolitano: 7:21
But is not Mr. Putin’s goal in fighting the war to eradicate a Ukrainian military so that at least for another generation the Russians don’t have to put up with this again? He could send off a half dozen Oreshniks tomorrow and destroy the regime. That’s not what he wants to do.

Doctorow:
I agree with your analysis, but I say it’s a faulty policy, because the world does not stand still. This has been the problem with this war from the beginning, that every time it looked like the Russians were coming to victory, the West came in with a new escalatory move and provided Ukraine with manpower, with, I’ve got to say, advisors, and with hardware, which enabled them to fight on.

If the situation is now reaching a culmination point, which means that the defenders of Ukraine are all the more desperate and irresponsible in their behavior, [then] I think it is a big mistake if Vladimir Putin does not take that into account and do what is within his power, which is to utterly destroy the Ukrainian regime in one day with the Oreshniks on Bankovskaya Urytsia, whatever it’s called, the one street in downtown Kiev, where all the government officers are.

That would be much more sparing of Russian lives and Ukrainian lives than his war of attrition today.

Napolitano: 8:50
I guess he doesn’t want to spare the Ukrainian lives. Chris, let’s play back to back the cuts that reference what Professor Doctorow has been saying. 18 and then 22, Chris.

Questioner:
Mr. President, do you think that NATO countries should shoot down Russian aircraft if they enter their airspace?

Trump:
Yes, I do.

Questioner:
Would you back up NATO allies– you said that you thought that they should shoot down the Russian aircraft– would you back them up, would the United States help them out in some way?

Trump:
Depends on the circumstances. It’s been a terrible war, should have ended, and Russia should have stopped it.

But they’ve been three and a half years and they’ve gotten not so far. So we’ll see what happens. But the other side can fight, too. And they’ve proven that. Maybe it’s a – it could be that Russia is a paper tiger.

I don’t know what they are, but three and a half years of fighting and killing everybody, of killing 7,000 people a week For nothing. For nothing. So it’s a very sad situation, but most of you have seen the recent statement I put out a little while ago. And I’m glad you got it. But I feel that way. I really do feel that way. Let them get their land back.

Macron:
Yep.

Trump:
So we’ll see how it all works out.

Napolitano: 10:07
Let them get their land back. You know, Professor Doctorow, that that is a metaphysical impossibility.

Doctorow:
And so does Donald Trump. He is speaking with sarcasm and he is giving again the message that I have read into him going back weeks: that is, Mr. Putin, get it over with. Now he didn’t say how the war should end.

He didn’t say what Russia will give, should give up in a settlement. No, he expects Russia to take all the chips, but they should do it now so we, the United States, and you Russians can get on with our real business, which starts with renewal of the New Start arms limitation agreement, which expires in February 26, very, very soon. These are issues of much greater importance to Mr. Trump than where the lines between the new Ukrainian rump state and Russia will be.

Napolitano: 11:09
Well, they’re certainly of great importance to the Russians. I don’t know if they’re of importance to Trump. He’s the one that tears up these agreements. He thinks they’re a sign of weakness when the United States is very rationally restrained from expanding its nuclear arsenal.

I want to play President Trump and President Macron again. Watch the look on President Macron’s face. This goes to your argument, Professor Doctorow. He may be saying this for the benefit of the Europeans. Watch the smirking President of France.

——–
Trump:
It’s been a terrible war that should have ended, and Russia should have stopped it. But they’ve been three and a half years, and they’ve gotten not so far. So we’ll see what happens.

But the other side can fight, too. And they’ve proven that. Maybe it’s a — it could be that Russia is a paper tiger. I don’t know what they are, but three and a half years of fighting and killing everybody, of killing 7,000 people a week for nothing. For nothing.

So it’s a very sad situation, but most of you have seen the recent statement I put out a little while ago. And I’m glad you got it. But I feel that way. I really do feel that way. Let them get their land back.

Macron:
Yep:

Trump:
So we’ll see how it all works out.
——–

Napolitano: 12:27
Here’s President Zelensky’s reaction, Not to that interview with President Macron, but to the Truth Social posting that I read a few minutes ago, cut number 19.

========
“I think Ukraine, with the support of the European Union, is in a position to fight and WIN all of Ukraine back in its original form. With time, patience and the financial support of Europe and in particular NATO, the original Borders from where this war started, is very much an option.”

Are you surprised to hear that?

Zelensky:
A little bit. A bit. I mean, this, I’m sure in my people, in my army, and I’m sure in strengthening, in support of the United States. But President Trump was more positive in it. And he showed that he wants to support Ukraine to the very end.

So we understand now that we are ready to finish this war as quick as possible. And he wants, and I want, and our people want. But he understand that Putin doesn’t want. And he understands that he’s not winning, but he says to everybody that he will win. And I see very, it was a little bit surprise for me, you’re right. I was very positive signals from the side that Trump and America will be with us to the end of the war.

Yes, we will see. We will see. But God bless. It will be so.
========

Napollitano: 14:05
What do you expect him to say? Surprised and he’s happy, but he may not believe it. He may take the Doctorow view of this.

Doctorow:
Well, I don’t know how deeply he will analyze it. So long as Trump says what he said, that Europe will save Ukraine, Zelensky knows that it cannot save Ukraine. This is the key point.

Mr. Trump has washed his hands of American military and financial contributions to Ukraine. That is decisive. Everything else is irrelevant, actually. Let Mr. Macron smirk, let him feel satisfied that he has turned Mr. Trump, which he hasn’t. The man is not for turning. And I believe that Mr. Putin is missing the cues.

The cue is Trump is buying him time to end it. And end it, he can only do with Oreshniks. Otherwise, this will go on for one more year. And Lord knows what’s going to happen in the global alignment of countries on this war and on Russia in one year’s time. This is the time to end it.

Napolitano: 15:25
Can you give me your understanding of the drone issue, the claims that Russia sent drones over Poland, the counterclaims that these were Russian drones on the ground in Ukraine, reassembled by the Ukrainians sent over Poland as sort of a false flag. How do you read this drone controversy, which candidly seems a little like old news and then it keeps coming back?

Doctorow: 15:57
It keeps coming back because it is not a self-standing issue. The drone issue is part of the Russian incursion issue. They are both being masterminded by the same people, probably sitting in MI6 in London.

It is because the Brits are way ahead of the States in nasty, nasty tricks, especially today, when Mr. Trump has pulled in the CIA and the other actors who otherwise took part in dirty tricks and false flag operations in Ukraine.

The situation is complex, and I’m not surprised that many people have not seen this as one whole campaign by the leadership in Europe, this means Britain and Germany, to nail Russia with accusations that are false or which are, may be true as in the case of incursions, but are true for reasons that are not coming up in the press. I have in mind specifically the point that in effect, the NATO powers in Europe have created or want to create an air blockade on Russia.

17:17
They are saying that Russia is crossing their airspace. Well, it probably is, because if you look at the map, and if you ask Google artificial intelligence this question, can any aircraft pass the length of the Baltic without passing over NATO countries’ territorial waters, the answer comes back: it cannot. So what we saw–

Napolitano:
That’s Sweden, right?

Doctorow:
Sweden joined NATO, and that made it almost impossible for Russian aircraft to cross the Baltic and not touch on one or another territorial water of a NATO state. That is not being discussed in the media.

It is a nasty secret because what we’re talking about now is essentially an attempt to blockade in the air, which follows the May events. You will recall, in May of this year. The Estonians sent cutters to arrest a gray fleet tanker that was taking oil to or from St. Petersburg as Russia owned. And they were driven away like scattering mice before a cat when the Russians sent up fighter planes over that area.

18:39
That failed. The naval blockade on the ground, on water level, failed. Now they’re trying an air blockade. So the only way– what this will lead to, if it is pursued, and if they follow the advice of Mr. Trump and shoot down a Russian plane, it leads us directly to World War Three. Since Mr.

Trump did not answer the question– you heard that he didn’t answer the question, but the United States will provide support– he was asked that elsewhere, in which he said it depends on the circumstances. The point is that it’s very feeble to non-existent support, and no NATO country will dare attack a Russian airplane if it doesn’t have US backing.

Napolitano: 19:20
Does Emmanuel Macron believe that Russia is a paper tiger?

Doctorow:
I don’t think for a minute he believes that. He knows how many nuclear missiles he has. He knows that the Russians have 10 times or more that number. And that he knows that the Russian nuclear triad is totally updated, which the United States is not. Therefore, if anyone is feeding him proper intelligence, and I assume they are, he knows that that is not a paper tiger.

Napolitano: 19:48
Back to the drones. Is it your understanding that MI6 engineered this, that the drones were a false flag and the Poles were in on the scheme?

Doctorow:
My first reading of the situation was much more simple and direct. It seemed to me, and not just to me but to many other people, that the Ukrainians had initiated this, and that the intent was to put the Russians into direct conflict with Poland. If a military action took place, then that would quickly broaden into a direct kinetic war, as opposed to proxy war between NATO and Russia.

20:30
Then when this broadened, then Romania became an issue. And then following that several days later, at the end of last week, we had this Estonian claims. It became clear that this was not a one-off, the drones were not a one-off act by Ukraine to engage Poland in war. It was something much bigger, and it was being directed most likely from the West and most likely from Britain.

And the timing, let’s look at this question of incursions. The incursions, even Kallas said, Kallas, the head of, the foreign policy commissioner of, the vice president of the European Commission, said that there were four Russian incursions over Estonia airspace this year.

21:17
Well, why wasn’t the complaint made earlier, and why was it made now? The answer is Zapad-25, the military exercises that Russia was conducting at the same time as the drone incursions and ended just before the story of jet fighters over Estonian airspace.

This was a NATO response to Zapad 25 to start the 100,000 Russian soldiers in operations from Murmansk to the southwest of the Russian Federation with a very big soft-power impact on the 25 delegations from all over the world, including Iran, who were present as witnesses.

Napolitano: 22:06
If MI6 orchestrates this type of dirty tricks– and I don’t mean to demean it by calling it dirty tricks; it could have led to the loss of life; it could have led to a a war– is CIA far behind? Don’t they work hand in glove?

Doctorow: 22:23
Well, I think you have other panelists who are much more capable, much more experienced in judging what CIA can do. I, as an outsider looking on, say that’s doubtful.

After all, I think that Mr. Trump has some control over policy, even in the CIA, and they would be much more cautious about something as inflammatory, as escalatory as what has gone on in the last week; whereas MI6 knows no restraints. Their boss is all in favor. It’s all sporting for a war.

Napolitano: 22:59
Professor Doctorow, a fascinating stuff. Thank you very much. Welcome back home from your happy trip. And thank you very much for joining us. We’ll look forward as always to seeing you next week.

Doctorow:
My pleasure.

Napolitano:
Thank you again. Coming up later today at 1:30 this afternoon, Aaron Maté– do you know that General Petraeus embraced somebody he once tried to kill who was the head of the Taliban when Petraeus was leading the charge in Afghanistan? We’ll get into all of that.

And Pepe Escobar– what do President Xi and President Putin think of Trump’s latest words, which I think are nonsense and Professor Doctorow says are carefully calculated? That’s Pepe Escobar today at 3.30 this afternoon.

23:49
Judge Napolitano for “Judging Freedom”.