Transcript of WION ‘Game Plan,’ 24 September 2025

Transcript submitted by a reader

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ZXVX6xRatk

WION: 0:00
Welcome to Game Plan, I’m Shivan Chanana. While Europe has been busy dealing with unknown drones flying into NATO airspace in various countries, Russia planned and executed a subterranean ambush in the eastern Ukrainian city of Kupyansk, just across the Oskil river beyond Luhansk. Now this is a key artery for supplies for the Ukrainian army. Kupyansk was turned into a heavily fortified zone by Kiev as Ukraine established fire control over the approaches to the city. That is essentially what Ukraine prepared Kupyansk for.

0:31
But Russian troops reportedly used carts and scooters to travel 13 kilometers under the Oskil River, navigating through extensive Soviet-era underground networks of pipelines to ambush Ukrainian troops who were stationed in Kupiansk. And they were totally caught unaware. Russian troops have now sealed off a large Ukrainian group north and west of Kupyansk, trapping some 700 Ukrainian troops, out of which 250 are reported to have been eliminated by the Russian defense ministry.

So how did Russia do it? Why was Ukraine caught off guard? How do they navigate in these Soviet-era pipelines which exist even now? How important is Kupyansk for Russia? What is Russia’s game plan? On this episode of Game Plan, I’m being joined by Dr. Gilbert Doctorow from Berlin. He’s an international affairs analyst, author and historian. Dr. Doctorow, always a pleasure speaking with you. Is the fall of Kupyansk imminent now?

Doctorow: 1:27
According to the latest Russian reports, which were broadcast last night on state television, the Russians are occupying a part of central Kupiansk and are cleaning it out.

What that means is they have mine sweepers to eliminate the weapons left by Ukraine in those parts of the city which they abandoned for the sake of causing havoc to the invaders. But let’s take a step back, as you mentioned a moment ago. Why is Kopyansk important? Aside from its logistical aspect, which you have mentioned, it is a defending point for the city of Kharkov. The city of Kharkov, or Kharkiv, as it’s called in Ukrainian, was and is the second-largest Ukrainian city in an area that is Russian-speaking.

2:14
So it is more than that. The Kharkov area, being close to the Russian border, has been a staging ground for the incursions into Belgorod and Kursk oblasts, or region of the Russian Federation. Moreover, the troops, those 750 troops, now 500 troops, who are they? And why would they be of particular interest to the Russians? Because a part of them are what’s called the Russian Volunteer Corps, which is a group of Russian defectors, Russians who joined the Ukrainian side and who were celebrated by the Ukrainian government when it staged its violent terrorist operations inside Belgorod about a year ago.

WION: 3:02
I understand. And when you say clearing out Kupyansk, that is essentially what the report suggests so far. Now, is Kupyansk going to fall to Russian forces eventually? Is that now a certainty?

Doctorow:
Oh, it’s a certainty. What is happening is the slow evacuation, to the extent possible, from the area. The Ukrainians have more or less given it up. They will leave those who are trapped to be killed. That is the way that they have behaved so far in each similar Russian capture of a fortified city. So those fellows are goners unless they can manage to surrender. The city of Kupyansk will fall.

Kharkov is really the target of this operation. Here again, the Russians are not storming the city of Kharkov. It has a large Russian-speaking population. They are not intent on causing civilian casualties. But they will surround and starve out Kharkov. The surrender of Kharkov will be inevitable, and that is an important part of the Russian game plan for the end of the war.

WION: 4:13
I hear your point. And Dr. Doctorow, what kind of loss is this going to cause to Ukraine? As Kupyansk, was a fully fortified town. It was guarding Kharkiv, Kharkiv being the second largest city. What kind of loss will this be for the Ukrainian government as far as the infiltration is concerned? And also going forward, what’s next for the Russian forces after that?

Doctorow:
Well, let’s be honest, the main area of activity is not around Kharkov. That is a secondary front for the Russians. The main area of activity, of course, is in the Donetsk oblast, which is the key oblast, region of the Donbas.

And it is there you have the Ukrainian forces collapsing in front of our eyes, withdrawing and leaving the path open for the Russian capture of Slovyansk and Kramatorsk in the center. The city that gets the most attention, which I believe you mentioned is Pakrovsk, which is known in Russian as Krasnoyarsk, is in a similar position to what is happening in Kupyansk. That is to say, the Russians have avoided storming any of these cities in the most obvious way by sending in massive troops from outside and running over the barbed wire, whatever else the Ukrainians have established to protect them. Instead, they are doing the bombardment of these towns to soften them up and using special methods as were using Kupyansk, the underground tunnels.

WION: 5:49
And Dr. Doctorow, let me also get your thoughts on the latest statement which came in from Donald Trump after talking to Zelensky, saying that Ukraine can regain all territories lost to Russia. And this is– earlier he was talking about ceding territory, and now he’s giving Ukrainians hope that they can regain all that territory which has been lost to Russia. Is this yet another U-turn from Trump, which it seems like, which will eventually also get U-turned later, or is there any kind of hope now which Ukraine is gaining? And how will that translate into the battlefield?

Doctorow: 6:25
This news is prime news on this morning’s BBC. And it’s being described as a statement of fact that has to be dealt with. It means that Mr. Trump has been turned, that he has now sided with the Ukrainians against the Russians. This is all nonsense. Mr. Trump is a master of deception. He is a master of spreading confusion.

And he is a master at playing the British, the EU countries, for fools, which is not particularly difficult because they are fools. The point is that the United States has stopped supplying arms that it paid for. It will not renew that. Mr. Trump made no such promises.

7:11
What is clear is that he wanted to shut up Mr. Zelensky in a very polite and seemingly gracious way and to silence his opponents in Europe, to make them think, or at least be able to say, as the BBC did as the voice of Mr. Starmer, that Mr. Trump has turned. He hasn’t turned at all.

But he’s gained some time. He’s gained some weeks. On the other hand, his message yesterday, during his General Assembly speech, made clear what I have seen in him for some time. His message was to Mr. Putin when he said how disappointed he was that the war wasn’t ended in one week, and his taunt to Mr. Putin that the Russians look like a paper tiger. That is the message of Mr. Trump to Putin: get it over with, finish this war quickly, so that we can move on to real business like the arms limitation talks that have to be renewed at the start and so forth.

WION: 8:16
All right, Dr. Gilbert Doctorow, thanks so much for joining me here on “Game Plan”. As always, never holding back your views or your thoughts or your feelings regarding the UK, at least at this point and the Ukrainians. But as far as your comments on Trump are concerned, you’ve maintained earlier as well that he’s not to be considered as someone who doesn’t know what he’s talking about. He knows very well what he’s doing. So his statements right now which suggest that he is back with the Ukrainians, it’s perhaps also a message to Russia but eventually he wants to get this done with as he’s mentioned enough times in the past as well.

We need to wait and watch how this one unfolds, but as of now this is what the Russian game plan seems like as of now. They are definitely going after Kupyansk, but perhaps not after the entire city of Kharkiv. How this eventually plays out we need to wait and watch.

8:58
That was Dr. Gilbert Doctorow joining me here on “Game Plan”. Thanks so much, doctor.

Doctorow:
My pleasure.