Transcript of the IranTalks interview

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https://youtu.be/GNQZk8toMwE?si=ZrszoNr84clVgPbx

Doctorow: 0:00
The Russians will flatten anything above two bricks tall. They haven’t done that because it’s not a war. We are, frankly, at a dire moment, possibly about to see an escalation that could lead us very quickly to World War III. Mr. Trump, his attempt to bully Russia has not yet yielded results.

You stand up to a bully by hitting him first and not waiting for him to attack. All that can happen from applying further pressure to the Russians is that they will declare war on Ukraine and they may do that in a week or two.

Samer Hakim:
Hello and welcome to Iran Talks. My name is Samer Hakim, your host for the program. In this episode, we are going to delve into factors that define hybrid warfare today, especially in relation to the Ukraine war and more importantly, ask if this war is just really a conflict between Moscow and Kiev. What factors are contributing to the war from dragging on? We also look into NATO and its role in the war as well as how Iran, along with China and Russia, could potentially form a new deterrence to counter American hegemony. Dr. Gilbert Doctorow, a geopolitical analyst, Russia expert and author is joining us today to discuss this matter further. Dr. Gilbert, welcome to the program.

Doctorow: 1:15
Good to be with you. Thanks for the invitation.

Hakim:
Thank you. Pleasure to have you. The first question for you, I suppose, is to help us understand the issue of hybrid warfare. Explain to us what that means.

Doctorow:
Well the first thing to understand is it’s separate from what we call kinetic warfare. That is, it’s not the use of arms. It is waged in different domains, information war, disinformation, so it is a subset of information war. It is economic pressure, sanctions, it is tariffs, These are elements. It may be surveillance, open surveillance, as for example, this question of drones, that is, intelligence drones that are used on the territory of the adversary. These are various examples of what is meant by hybrid warfare. It’s a very loose term, and I would like to explain that it’s a term that was invented and is most widely used in Western Europe and the United States to describe or to attribute to Russia malevolent behavior.

Hakim: 2:47
Right. Are they claiming that they don’t use? I mean propaganda is considered part of the hybrid warfare, wouldn’t it?

Doctorow:
I’m saying that accusations coming from the West that Russia is using a hybrid warfare. These are accusations by people like Ursula von der Leyen. They are directed against Russia.

You see very little or nothing coming from Russia saying that the West is using hybrid warfare against Russia. What they speak about is specifically information warfare, for example. And all of this should be separated from, as I said, from kinetic warfare. And from– a subset of kinetic warfare is proxy warfare. That is warfare that is carried on not with your own servicemen but by the servicemen of third parties, allied parties who have their own interest in fighting with your adversary.

Hakim: 3:51
Okay, so let’s hone in on the war that’s ongoing at the moment between Russia and Ukraine. Is it correct to say that this is a war between these two capitals, between [Kiev] and Moscow, or is it more a war between Moscow and the allied nations or the US-led NATO military alliance?

Docroorow:
Well, the relative mix of these two elements, that is direct Ukrainian warfare against Russia and the use of Ukraine as a proxy by West Europe and the United States to carry out acts of war against Russia. These are different things. I’ll leave it at that.

Hakim: 4:43
Right. Okay. With regards to NATO and the way that it’s acting with regards to air operations, is it changing the rules of engagement with air operations when it is operating against Russian threats?

Doctorow:
The nature of the war has evolved steadily, or steadily would be mistaken way, in spurts, in rounds of escalation. The war started initially as strictly a Russian-Ukraine conflict.

It wasn’t called a war. It still isn’t called a war by the Russians, although I think in the next week or two it may become an openly declared war. Nonetheless, for the last three years what has been going on has been called, by the Russian side, a special military operation, which means that Ukraine was never identified as the enemy. It is the regime, as they call it, of Volodymyr Zelensky and the nationalists, the xenophobic anti-Russian nationalists who support him and who have supported the government ever since a new anti-Russian government was installed in Ukraine in February 2014 in what we know as a coup d’etat.

6:13
So that group is the target of the Russian campaign. It is to neutralize them. It is to eliminate the military forces that they command, particularly the most rabid anti-Russian forces, the Azov Battalion and similar, who have energized the Ukrainian army over time and turned it into an effective battering ram against Russia. So demilitarization, denazification, by that they mean removal of the most rabid nationalists who find as their inspiration the anti-Soviet forces that were acting in cooperation with the Nazis during World War II.

And so to remove those people, those factions, from Ukrainian public life, that has been the starting point of this special military operation. It has moved on step by step in a series of escalations whereby the involvement of the United States in particular and its allies, the secondary role, have increased and the war steadily became, over time became essentially a Russia-NATO war fought on the territory of Ukraine. That’s where we are today.

Hakim: 7:50
Okay. What about the nuclear powers that, weapon heads, the warheads that Russia has? That was considered to be a deterrent beforehand. Is it still a deterrent or is something else acting as a deterrent now? Is there a deterrent even?

Doctorow: 9:07
Well deterrence is a very complicated notion among political scientists. It has various components to it. Do you have the wherewithal? Do you have the armaments to dissuade your opponent or enemy from doing something or other? And do you have the will to use that wherewithal, that determination which you demonstrate, which convinces them that they shouldn’t do this or that or something very unpleasant will happen to them.

So these are the elements in dissuasion and deterrence. And this is the number one question in Russia today, in its domestic politics, whether or not Mr. Putin’s go-slow approach and his prosecution of a special military operation with a number of limited, defined targets, versus all-out war, has been productive and is increasing security or reducing security of Russia.

Hakim:
And would you consider this, the deterrences that they use, part of psychological welfare or are they actual real strategies?

Doctorow: 9:23
Well, Russia has invested enormously over the last 20 years to develop armaments of advanced nature. Some of them are a generation ahead of anything that the United States has, for example. This is unprecedented. Russia since 1945 was always playing catchup to the United States, first in atomic weapons, then hydrogen bombs, and then whatever you could think of in terms of armaments, the Russians were always one step behind and were wanting to catch up.

For the first time in its history, in its modern history, Russia has arms that are arguably much more advanced than those in the arsenals of Western Europe and the United States. So on the standpoint of wherewithal, Russia has it to be, to effectively deter aggression against itself by the United States or Europe. However, its very moderate and very unusual approach to dealing with Ukraine has raised questions from the start of this war in the minds of European and American leaders, whether Mr. Putin has the determination and will to defend Russia’s interests and defend the red lines that it has declared as being a threat to its security by using military force. So in that respect, The strength coming out of the arms wherewithal is weakened by the seeming lack of determination to defend interests using those arms.

Hakim: 11:13
Okay, it’s interesting we’re speaking about interests. I’ll get to that in a minute. But some of the viewers might have this question about Russia acting as a peacemaker or the role that it’s playing in the international global community with regards to trying to roll out peace across some regions, yet itself is in the midst of war. How can you explain that, or how can the Russians explain that contradiction or paradox?

Doctorow:
Well, I don’t see it as being unique. We have in the United States Mr. Trump looking to receive the Nobel Prize for peace while he’s waging wars on a number of fronts–

Hakim:
Trump is in a class of his own, I think.

Doctorow:
Yes and no. The point is that throughout history, the creation of great artifacts of civilization, whether it be music or drama, any of the higher … of human beings on earth [has] taken place in times of war and slaughter and inhumanity.

So contradictions are unfortunately a part of human existence. And that Russia would be a peacemaker in some areas, would be a war maker in others, is not to be, confuse us. We have to look at where the major weight is. The major weight is: Russia is trying, together with China, with Iran, and with members of BRICS, to create a new parallel structure of world governance that will overtake and replace eventually the US hegemony, which we have today, with the United States bullying the rest of the world under Mr. Trump.

Hakim: 13:05
Indeed. What role does the American military complex have to play in the war that is ongoing right now?

Doctorow:
Well, the threat of using America’s most advanced offensive weapons against Russia is there. People point to the Tomahawks, which may not be the most advanced, most recent. It’s 40 years old, but still is quite a serious weapon of war, which Mr. Trump may or may not agree to give to Kiev when he meets with Zelensky tomorrow in Washington.

The American military, of course, has enormous strength and positions in its several hundred different bases across the world. The Russians are fully aware of the strength of power and the general willingness of the United States to use its arms to smash anything in its path. However, we’re speaking essentially about a bully, a bully who succeeds when his rules are accepted by NATO. They have accepted them. Mr. Trump’s bullying of the allies in NATO has been totally successful. His bullying of Middle Eastern powers has been reasonably successful when he assembled almost all of the Gulf states in lining up like so many ducks to back his 20-point peace plan for Gaza. His attempt to bully Russia has not yet yielded results. And my projection is that it will yield exactly the opposite results to those that Mr. Trump expects.

15:09
He is ignoring statements by Vladimir Putin going back a few years ago that he grew up as a kind of skinny kid in the courtyards of Leningrad, today St. Petersburg, and where there always were some guys hanging out in corners who we would describe as bullies. And he understood as a very young fellow that you stand up to a bully by hitting him first and not waiting for him to attack you. So whether or not Mr. Putin retains that lesson and decides to act on it today remains to be seen.

But I think Mr. Trump is overplaying his hand by threatening Russia, not only with Tamahawks, but also by taking a cudgel against India and Brazil, striking against BRICS and trying to show that he is more powerful than BRICS’ rulers. Most recently, his statement yesterday that he forced a promise from Modi to stop buying Russian oil. All of these events or non-events which Mr. Trump reports on his social platform, they indicate that he is heady with success from what looks like an end to the Gaza war, but how real that is we’ll see in a few weeks.

16:43
But he is heady from success in his belief that by using maximum force against both sides in a conflict, he can, by diktat, get them to compromise and end a conflict in a way that gives credit to him. I don’t believe that what he learned from his Gaza expedition, his visit to the Knesset and delivering his wonderful speeches, I don’t believe that those lessons have any application whatsoever to solving the Russia-Ukraine war and on the contrary, are more likely to lead us into World War III if he proceeds by extending them to the Russian-Ukraine war.

Hakim: 17:28
Okay, and this bully, as you put it, they are making financial gains in prolonging this war. I mean they seem to be in a position, if the bully is the one that wants everyone to yield to their rules, but if they don’t they will prolong the war in order to make financial gain, in their eyes they’re winners either way. Are they making financial profits by prolonging the war?

Doctorow:
Well, state policy in many countries is determined by intellectuals and by business people. You were addressing the second part, the business people, and where’s the profit. And many analysts, of course, pay attention to the military-industrial complex and its interest everywhere in wars, extending wars. But intellectuals are not motivated by money for the most part. They are motivated by power, power considerations.

18:24
And so they’re even more dangerous than the military- industrial complex. And I think on the standpoint of intellectuals driving this war, you’ve got the whole foreign policy establishment in the United States is pro-war. And that is a bigger factor, I think, in what is happening, or what has happened for the last three, four years than what the military-industrial complex by itself does to influence US foreign policy.

Hakim:
Okay. So if we were to move to Iran, What role does Iran’s drones and cyber capabilities have in the, sort of the regional global hybrid warfare that is going on?

Doctorow:
Well, Iran has had a very big impact on the Russia-Ukraine war. There is no defense, mutual defense agreement between Russia and Iran. There’s a long-term strategic cooperation agreement, but that does not include in it a mutual-defense pact. Nonetheless, even without this, Iran gave to Russia a major contribution to enter the new world of warfare.

At the start of this war in February 2022, Russia had minimal experience with drones. It had minimal production experience with drones. Thanks to the intervention of Iran, which first sold some drones to Russia and then facilitated the construction of drone production within Russia, including the single drone that is one of the most effective that Russia was and is using. They call it GERAD. In prosecuting the war against Ukraine, Iran made a major contribution to Russia’s entry into the new world of drone warfare. And drone warfare, let me just explain that this war started as an artillery war.

20:38
And Russia had, shall we say, a 10-times advantage over Ukraine in artillery pieces, the troops, and in the missiles themselves, the projectiles themselves. That gave them, almost from the start, a 10-to-1 kill ratio over the Ukrainian armies. Nobody talked about it in those terms, but that was effectively what has happened. As the drones became more important, and particularly over the last year, year and a half, the nature of the war changed.

It became more balanced. I don’t want to say equally balanced. Today, it would be fair to say that the Russians have a 2 to 1 advantage over the Ukrainians in drone capacity and drone capability. The 2 to 1 is quite different from 10 to 1. And so it was extremely important that with Iranian assistance, because Iran had a rather developed drone program, that Russia climbed the scale. For their part, the Ukrainians got assistance from Turkey.

21:51
They received, I’m not sure about production, but certainly they received, they purchased drones from Turkey, which they used to fire against the Russians. Today it’s difficult to say exactly where the Ukrainian drones are coming from. Some of them are self-produced in an artisanal way in small shops, which are hard to identify and destroy for the Russians. But a lot of it is coming in large quantities, pieces to be assembled or maybe even fully assembled drones which are being supplied from Western Europe.

The Russian side, I think, is maybe getting something from North Korea. I’m not sure whether they get anything further from Iran, but they are producing themselves in massive quantities.

Hakim:
All right, any comments on the cyber capabilities of Iran’s contribution?

Doctorow:
Sorry?

Hakim:
The cyber capabilities.

Doctorow:
I can’t really comment on that. I haven’t followed it closely. Cyber, I agree with you. Cyber attacks have long been considered an integral part of what is called this special warfare. But I have not watched that closely.

Hakim: 23:06
Okay. What are the relationship and the cooperation that Iran, Russia and China are forming with regards to security? That’s clearly changing the balance of power. How do you see that panning out?

Doctorow:
Well, it has many dimensions, a geopolitical dimension in the neighborhood. The neighborhood includes Central Asia. Iran is a big contributor, a potential contributor, to consolidation of the whole larger region through its logistical situation as the North-South Corridor. The North-South Corridor will integrate Central Asia and central Russia in a unified and very speedy transportation line to Mumbai, to India, and to the greater world.

24:00
So in that sense, the cooperation of– the role that Iran will play as this project develops will be very significant for the entire region. As regards security, we saw at the meeting earlier this year of the Shanghai Cooperation Organization in Tianjin that the organization is developing a very important military dimension, and economic dimension. It is a kind of regional BRICS.

For the founders of BRICS, the inconvenience in making progress on its integration and development has been the relative disinterest of Brazil, in particular, in what is going on in Eurasia. And that relates also to Brazil’s rejection of various nominee countries to join greater BRICS or the central controlling membership of BRICS. In the Shanghai Cooperation Organization, this disinterest doesn’t exist. All the parties are interested in this very extended regional organization, extending from Belarus and the West all the way out to the Sea of Japan and the South China Sea. And of course, Iran is a major part, an integral part of this development.

Hakim: 25:51
Okay, I want to move over to Syria now. The self-appointed Syrian president visited Moscow recently and he met with Putin. They were all sort of happy to meet each other. Sort of he said, I’ll respect all the past security deals. How do you see this panning out? What initially Russia was doing was protecting the previous president of Syria al-Bashar from terrorists, including Ahmad al-Julani, who is now known as al-Sharkh. So how do you see this panning out?

Doctorow:
Well, there are a lot of curious developments around Syria. You mentioned the position of Russia with respect to Assad. But what about the position of the United States and other Western countries for whom he was a terrorist?

And his arriving in New York to speak to the UN General Assembly, that met many different questions among the American media. So it’s not just Russia that has changed. There was a lot of glee, a lot of exulting in Berlin, in Paris, in London, in Washington. When Assad fell, it was assumed that the Russians would be chased out of their bases, Latakia, air base, Tartus, naval base, when the new government took over, precisely because [they] had been so closely associated with the defense of President Assad. We have this visit, I think it was the first foreign visit of the Syrian president after his General assembly trip, and it’s to Moscow.

27:48
Now, this suggests that all of the glee over Russia’s loss of its bases in the Mediterranean and in the Arab world was premature. And I think what made it premature was the aggression by Israel against Syria ever since the new government came into power in Damascus and up to the present day. Now, and this aggression is made possible by backing from the United States and the NATO countries. As Syria is not oblivious to it. The Israelis have taken not only the entire Golan Heights, but also the lowlands, so they’re in very close artillery range of Damascus.

And there’s no end in sight. The greater-Israel project is not achieved and completed. In the face of this extreme threat, not just to his regime, but to the nation of Syria, it is understandable that the Syrian president would reconsider relations with Russia as a central counterbalance to Israel and Europe slash the United States. And that’s exactly what we’re seeing. There was no discussion in public about the military defense cooperation that may yet be between Syria and Russia.

29:30
Certainly that is not in the public domain. All they talked about were commercial issues, but primarily energy issues. It’s curious, just as an example of the kind of quality of news reporting that you see in major media: BBC today was reporting on this very meeting in Moscow and saying, “Yes, the Syrians, the Syrian president, the Russian president agreed not to look back, but only to look forward.” That’s not what they agreed, not at all.

The BBC was either tone-deaf or is just engaging as usual in blatant propaganda. The salutation that Mr. Putin made to the Syrian president was, you know, we are in 2025, You’re celebrating the 80th anniversary of the opening of diplomatic relations between the Soviet Union and Syria, 80 years. And during that time, we did a lot of things together. And they put up on Russian television pictures of what they did.

30:31
Among them, a large part of the electric energy in Syria is coming from hydroelectric plants that were built by the Russians. So the extent of cooperation-

Hakim:
That’s all fine. But you’re more explaining the Syrian side. It needs Russia.

Doctorow:
Yes.

Hakim:
I mean, one of the things that they did in the last eight years was that they were fighting terrorists, and Jolani was a terrorist. He was in the leadership of the terrorist organization, as you said yourself, the West considers him a terrorist, the CIA had a $10 million bounty on his head. They turned around and are now accepting him as this new president and freedom fighter, or whatever they want to call him, that’s fine. But that doesn’t mean Russia or Putin should buckle to that. How is it that they’re now so cozy together?

Doctorow: 31:27
They’re pragmatists. You deal with what is, not what you want. The Russians were fighting the terrorists, but the terrorists not by themselves. They were fighting people who were being supported actively with arms and intelligence and propaganda systems, false-flag operations coming out of Britain and the United States.

And so they really were fighting those two major powers. And it was a kind of proxy war. And the Syrian, the various Syrian rebel groups or terrorist groups were supported by one or the other. The Russians sent, when they moved on the ground in Syria to support Assad, they sent mediation groups out into the countryside to deal with the various oppositions and to separate the good terrorists from the bad terrorists, so to speak. And that’s how they settled disputes locally around Syrian countryside, wherever they moved. So they had to deal with rather subtle distinctions during the Syrian Civil war.

32:45
So it’s not so surprising that after the war is over, they would again reaccommodate themselves to the realities on the ground.

Hakim:
Preserving self-interest perhaps?

Doctorow:
Of course. They don’t want to lose those bases. And particularly, Tartus is an important repair center and resupply center for Russian naval vessels operating in the Mediterranean.

Let’s remember that Russia’s powerful Black Sea fleet has to pass through the Dardanels. It is subject really to Turkish control. And so Russia has to have a substantial part of that fleet operational in the Mediterranean. And for that, you’d have to have repair services and resupply services for which Tartus was an important source.

33:44
Now, it’s not the only place. There are other countries in North Africa which Russia could turn to in a pinch to replace Tartus, and that was discussed immediately after the collapse of the Assad regime. But it is preferable to stay where you are. And for the Syrians, for the reason I mentioned above, it is important that they have Russians to use against, as a lever against the Israelis if necessary.

Hakim: 34:17
Final question for you with regards to how you see the future playing out for the world order and what factors might help in preventing a World War Three between the West and the East rivalries that we see.

Doctorow:
Well, I’m very sad to say that the usual optimistic or prognosis that I deliver on these various interview programs is no longer workable. We are frankly at a dire moment when we are possibly about to see an escalation that could lead us very quickly into World War III. The ball is in the Russians court. Mr. Trump has, it’s gone– his seeming success in Gaza with Israel, with the Arab states has gone to his head, of course, very early, because as I say, it would surprise no one if full-blown war between Hamas and Israel breaks out again in two or three weeks.

35:26
But Mr. Trump is satisfied that he’s been the peacemaker, and he thinks that this applies to the Russian war, and he has to apply maximum pressure to Russia economically with super weapons like the Tomahawks. And then Mr. Putin will line up, he’ll sign up, and he can really get that Nobel Peace Prize. It’s utter nonsense. All that can happen from applying further pressure to the Russians is that they will declare war on Ukraine. And they may do that in a week or two.

My prediction is that if Mr. Putin sees Trump giving Tomahawks to Kiev, that in a matter of a week he’ll declare war on Ukraine and there will be nothing left in Kiev to talk to or about, because the Russians will flatten anything above two bricks tall. It’ll look like Gaza. They haven’t done that because it’s not a war. It is a special military operation.

36:27
But they will declare war, and as they said on Russian television last night, they will be humane after they’ve completely defeated Ukraine, not before. So that is where we’re headed. If Mr. Putin does not do that, then I think we are certain to head for World War III, because the Trump group will go still further in delivering blows against Russia, economic blows, military attacks, which are nominally done by Ukrainians, were actually done by American military.

And Mr. Putin will be removed from office and replaced by somebody who can respond appropriately. And who that somebody is, we don’t want to know, because they’re not going to be nice guys. So this is the situation. The best that we can hope for is that Putin himself declares war, does what has to be done, keeps the Russian state organized presently, which is quite powerful. And since they are facing a bully, bullies will retreat in the face of decisive action.

37:44
I don’t think anybody among the loudmouths in Washington wants to be in a nuclear war with Russia. So they will, if Russia shows determination, if Putin shows determination, then the bully will back away.

Hakim:
Dr. Gilbert, it’s been a pleasure talking to you. Some very interesting predictions. I’d love to have you back on the show maybe in a few weeks’ time, maybe when some new developments happen, we’ll have a new conversation on that topic. Thank you so much once again for joining us.

Doctorow:
My pleasure.

Hakim:
Goodbye. Interesting predictions by our guest today. If the US gives Tomahawks to Ukraine, Putin will declare war, flatten Kiev, World War III will start, Trump will be replaced by God knows who, something bleak indeed.

38:34
What are your thoughts? We hope you did enjoy today’s episode. Please do comment, like and don’t forget to subscribe. See you next time