Transcript submitted by a reader

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnusdxbXzp0

Napolitano: 0:30
Hi everyone, Judge Andrew Napolitano here for “Judging Freedom”. Today is Wednesday, July 2nd, 2025. Professor Gilbert Doctorow will be here with us in just a moment on Russia’s information war against NATO and other relevant topics. But first this.

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1:58
Professor Doctorow, welcome here, my dear friend. What is your understanding of the current status of the special military operation in Ukraine or at least the Kremlin’s view of the current status of the special military operation in Ukraine?

Gilbert Doctorow, PhD:
Well, the Russians announced yesterday with great pride that they had completely liberated Lugansk oblast, which was one of the two regions formerly of Ukraine that we call the Donbas. There was, about three percent was left under Ukrainian occupation xxxxxxx as they were viewed from Russia. But that was cleaned up. And now the whole of Lugansk is theirs. They were also making substantial progress in Donetsk.

They are going after men more than going after territory. They want to deprive Ukraine of an effective military and do that at minimum cost to themselves. And so they’re proceeding not so much in a showy way by territory that they seize, although they are adding several square kilometers every day or two, but they are doing it in a way that the losses of personnel by Ukraine are again well over a thousand a day.

Napolitano:
Wow.

Doctorow:
In the Donbass, they continue to advance and to bomb and destroy the major logistical hubs that still are under Ukrainian control in Donetsk. And that is, first of all, Pakrovsk, as the Ukrainians know it, or Krasnoyarsk, as it’s called in Russian. So they show you every day this town, or that town, well, settlement would be a better title, that they are taking control of in the Donbas. The Russian flag goes up, or even a regional flag representing the military unit that was responsible for this particular action. For example, it could be the Baikal, troops from Baikal, and they would raise a Baikal flag over this or that hamlet.

4:21
But let’s be clear about it. The Ukrainians are moving back, but their lines are not collapsing. And I wouldn’t want to read into this, into the progress that the Russians are making, the suggestion that Ukraine is on the point of collapse. Nonetheless, everyone knows well that the Trump administration has curtailed, if not stopped, shipment of many valuable military assets to Ukraine. I think, first of all, those Patriots are not going to Ukraine. That’s clear as day. And other anti-aircraft.

Napolitano:
Let me just stop you for a second, because consistent with what you’ve said, Larry Johnson says, Ukraine will not be getting the Patriot missiles as you said. The thing they need the most, I know you’re not a military person, neither am I, but we can use our sense of reason. The 155 millimeter artillery shells, because the American supply of those is dangerously low. GMLRS rockets, I’m not sure what that is, and Stinger Hellfire missiles. All of a sudden, the Spigot has been partially closed. Please continue.

Doctorow: 5:37
Yes, well, the Spigot has been closed, and that sends a message to the Ukrainian military that they have to be particularly parsimonious with their forces and avoid direct confrontation with the Russians where possible, because they simply don’t have the supplies of weaponry, offensive and defensive, that they would like and that they need. So their situation is dire, but not desperate, not hopeless, and not urgent in the sense that tomorrow, or the week after, the capitulation. It won’t be.

Nonetheless, the Russians are feeling good about the way the war is going. And Mr. Putin has probably picked up a little bit more support among wavering Russian patriots who would like to see action faster.

Napolitano: 6:35
Is there pressure on President Putin from his right, to get more aggressive? I’ll just throw a name out there. I don’t know if he says these things for PR reasons or because he’s actually saying this to his colleague. A former president Medvedev, for example, has from time to time pounds the table. Is that pressure still on President Putin? Or if it is, does it go in one ear and out the other?

Doctorow:
Well, as regards Medvedev, he’s well under control by President Putin, and he is the attack dog that Mr. Putin has set up. He’s not attacking Putin. He’s taking the initiative to put the West on notice about Russia’s plans for continuing the war. So I wouldn’t look at Medvedev as a force against Putin, not at all. He’s an instrument of Putin.

But there are people, of course. There are, well, even this political scientist, Karaganov, who a year and a half ago was calling for a military strike in Germany using the Oreshnik, using even a tactical nuclear weapon to demonstrate that the Russians are serious, and to take their red lines with all due seriousness. So that pressure exists, but I don’t believe that Mr. Putin is responding to it or is forced to change his tactics, and not to mention strategy, as a result of this, since the armed forces have good news to put up on the television screen every day.

Napolitano: 8:22
Right. Right, right. What is the current attitude of Russia toward NATO? Taking into account, of course, the rather extraordinary telephone conversation that President Putin had with French President Macron yesterday for two hours, the first time they spoke in three years.

Doctorow:
Well, this is really two questions. And I don’t, I want to be sure that I get a handle on both of them.

Napolitano:
Sure, sure. Address it as you see fit, please.

Doctorow:
Both of them are very important. I think that the general public and the Western media are interpreting the call by Macron to Putin in the wrong way. We have very little information coming from anyone other than Mr. Putin as to what they talked about. He said they talked about, that he delivered to Mr. Macron Russia’s view of how this war will end. And we all know that; I won’t repeat the points, that they have to go back to the original source of the problem, resolve that, and not just have a ceasefire. So Mr. Putin used the opportunity to tell Macron directly what he otherwise would know indirectly from the Russian memorandum delivered to the Ukrainians at their last Istanbul meeting.

9:40
However, that is misleading. My understanding of the reason for the call is rather different. Macron reached out to Putin to involve the Russians in reinstating the old agreements with Iran over its enrichment program, the one that Mr. Trump pulled the United States out of. He– Russia was a party to that, and so it’s impossible for the European Union to proceed and try to reinsert itself into the peace process with Iran, since they’ve been totally sideline by the United States. If they reinsert themselves, they have to bring in Putin.

Let’s just remember that until relatively recently, when Viktor Orban went to speak with Putin, he was denounced by the EU for breaking ranks with the rest of the EU member states over the isolation of Russia. And here we have Mr. Macron, as if he’s doing this on his own, spontaneously, he’s a nice guy, he’s just changed his view. No, He did this as the emissary of the EU on behalf of Kallas and von der Leyen, who want to get Russia back, to help them get back into the Iran negotiate.

Napolitano: 11:01
Do you think he called up his buddies Keir Starmer and Friedrich Merz and said, “I’m about to talk to Vladimir. What do you want me to say to him?” Or do you think he did it on his own, with just the EU leadership backing?

Doctorow:
I think it’s the latter. Well, that’s sufficient. That’s entirely sufficient. He is running for the microphone and to be at the head of the band at any opportunity he has. And so when, say, Kallas or von der Leyen tapped him and said, “Look, we need somebody to reach out to Putin”, he would have been overjoyed. And I don’t think he would look for the consent from Merz who is answering–

Napolitano:
It’s odd that they had their conversation yesterday, or maybe there’s a connection here. You can analyze it for us please. French missiles were used to kill Russian civilians just two days ago. Could that have been the impetus for the Macron phone call?

Doctorow: 12:05
I think it would have pushed things along, yes, because Macron would be aware that Russian animus towards France had just gone up a few levels in light of that. This missile was originally identified, I think, by Western sources as having been a Storm shadow. Technically speaking–

Napolitano:
If it were, that would make it British, right?

Doctorow:
No. Well, if you call it Storm Shadow, it was British. If you call it, I think, SCALP, I forget what the French call it, it’s the same missile.

Napolitano:
Okay, but I mean, the Western sources thought the missile that killed the Russian civilians came from Starmer. In fact, it came from Macron. Am I correct?

Doctorow:
You’re exactly correct. Now this is not my assumption, it’s not some contacts I had with Russian military, nothing of the sort. I’m repeating what was on Russian television yesterday. And whether that is true or not is almost irrelevant. If the Russians are saying there was a French missile, then for all practical purposes in diplomatic relations, it was a French missile.

Napolitano: 13:05
Wow. … What is going on between Russia and Azerbaijan as we speak? And how potentially inflammatory is this?

Doctorow:
It is inflammatory, but it has interest, I think, for the audience of this program for several reasons. I think the most prominent reason is that– I’ve said in the past, Russia is not a cuddly rabbit. Russia is what it is, which is a major power, and major powers sometimes behave badly. And in the case of the relations with Azerbaijan, Moscow behaved very badly. This problem, and it is a big problem right now, but it is more in symbolic ways. The Azerbaijanis are giving every day some new signal to Moscow, “Boy, we don’t like what you’re doing, and we don’t like you.”

And they say that openly. There are accusations against the Kremlin directly in Azerbaijani media. And where did this start? By a very shabby response from the Kremlin to the downing of a passenger airplane, Azerbaijani airplane, about six months ago, as it was flying in the south of Russia and in an area which was under attack by Ukrainian drones at the time. This is– I’m giving you the Russian side of the story– that it was mistakenly downed, although they didn’t even admit that, it was mistakenly shot down because Russia was responding to the drones that were in the air in that area coming in from Ukraine.

14:50
Well, whether, whatever truth there is in that, there was a mistake, la la, the most important thing was what the Russians didn’t do after this catastrophe which took many lives. They did not apologize to Azerbaijan. They did not offer to pay compensation for the plane, or more importantly, to the passengers on that plane. This was shocking. In international behavior, this was terrible.

And to this day, the Kremlin has not said, “We are sorry; we made a mistake.” And in Baku, they’re furious. They have to be– in February when this occurred. Shortly afterwards, they closed Russia’s cultural center in Baku, Russia House. This last few days, they’ve shut down all Russian language courses in their secondaries, in their school system.

These are clear messages. They’ve also arrested the editors of Sputnik, this Russian news agency in Baku, about which Moscow is now howling to the skies. The whole problem began with Moscow; and from the perspective of Azerbaijan, they were behaving like bullies and like imperialists. And I mention this to highlight this point. Let’s not get carried away and believe that every, that Russia is always an innocent, No, Russia is a state power, and state powers behave badly from time to time, and they have to be told that.

Now as to how serious it is, I believe that there is foreign intervention here to exacerbate the situation.

Napolitano: 16:36
When you say that, you mean MI6, CIA, or Mossad.

Doctorow:
None of the above: French. I believe the French are somehow involved. Look, the French are very active in the Caucasus region. They are the ones behind the rebellion, call it, of the prime minister of Armenia against relations with Moscow, this Nikol Pashinyan, who is making a bid to join the EU, who has been absent from major meetings of former Soviet–

Napolitano:
Gee, I wonder if this was discussed between presidents Macron and Putin yesterday.

Doctorow:
It could be, but of course none of this would come out to the public. But as I said, the French are mixed up in the Caucuses, and look at the map, Azerbaijan is right there. So it is not inconceivable that the French could have been active in exacerbating the issues.

Napolitano: 17:36
Let’s go to Iran if we could, before we conclude. What is your view, Professor Doctorow, about why Donald Trump dropped those 30,000 pound bombs? Was it a regime change? Was it just to get Netanyahu off his back? Was it a serious attempt to set back the nuclear program? Or was it a pinprick, a big pinprick, designed not to kill human beings but to bring them to the negotiating table?

Doctorow:
I think it was all of the above. The question really for any analyst is to weight those various factors, but they’re all present. I think that– well, there’s one that you didn’t mention, which I jumped on first when I was trying to make sense out of his action, and that is to prevent Netanyahu from using nuclear weapons against these Iranian positions. Because absent American assistance, that is the only thing that would be in the Israeli arsenal that could have a chance of doing the job. So I think to prevent the Israelis from doing something horrific and to take the ball away from Netanyahu and to eliminate either de facto really or in words the Iranian nuclear program and put an end to this whole crisis in the Middle East around the nuclear program that has been a 30 year and idee fixe of Netanyahu and his associates.

Napolitano: 19:17
How was it that Mossad, which claims to be the most effective intelligence service on the planet, so grossly underestimated the power and ferocity and destructive capability of Iran’s retaliation? Didn’t they warn Netanyahu accurately of what would happen?

Doctorow:
I think they didn’t. There are a number of mistakes made by Israeli intelligence, which were suffering a real case of hubris after their delight in decapitating the neighboring, I would say, cat’s paws of Iran in Lebanon with their gadgets that exploded in the hands of Hezbollah leaders.

They certainly were delighted with having set the plan, this goes back several years, was waiting to spring the plan on Iran to decapitate its top generals in their forces and the leading scientists in their nuclear program. They had their eyes perfectly focused on minutiae, and they were suffering from near-sightedness. They didn’t focus their eyes on the big picture. They should have known about the 40,000 missiles. They should have known about the hidden launchers underground, which the Israeli air force could not decimate. And my assumption is that they gave Netanyahu inadequate information, which is for an intelligence agency, the most damning thing you can say.

Napolitano:
Right, right. I suppose the only thing worse is what the American intelligence agency does, telling the president what they think he wants to hear, whether it’s connected to the facts or not.

Professor Doctorow, thank you very much. Thanks for your time as always. And again, Thank you for all those notes and insights that you periodically send. I read every word of them and appreciate all the thoughtfulness behind it.

I guess they don’t celebrate the 4th of July in Europe. They certainly don’t celebrate it in England. I know you’re not in England, but have a nice weekend. It’s a big holiday weekend here, and we’ll look forward to seeing you next week.

Doctorow:
Well, we will celebrate. We’ll cool off. I mean, it’s been 95 degrees in Brussels. Tomorrow it drops to 70.

Napolitano:
Oh, nice to hear. All the best to you, Professor. Thank you.

Doctorow:
Thanks, bye-bye.

Napolitano: 22:03
Sure. And coming up later today at 2 o’clock this afternoon, Aaron Mate; at 3 o’clock, Phil Giraldi; at 4 o’clock, we’ll find him, Max Blumenthal.

Judge Napolitano for “Judging Freedom”.

Although the Information War that Moscow has advanced against the NATO decision to raise military budgets of Member States to 5% of GDP was indeed one of the topics in today’s chat with Judge Andrew Napolitano, we did not go into any depth because other subjects took precedence, including the fast deteriorating relations between Azerbaijan and the Russian Federation and what that tells us about the occasional brutishness of Moscow; Emanuel Macron’s two hour phone conversation with Vladimir Putin yesterday; the killing and wounding of civilians in Donetsk City yesterday caused by a French-built Storm Shadow medium range missile fired by Ukrainian forces; an appreciation of the situation on the front lines in Donbas, where the Ukrainians are losing ground but remain in control of the discipline of their troops and continue fighting despite the cut-off of American military supplies; and why Mossad may not be the world’s greatest intel agency but a very near sighted bunch that is no better than peers in Washington or London.

I regret that there was not sufficient time to go into what I consider to be a serious mistake by Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov and President Putin in describing the rise in military budgets as leading to a ‘catastrophic collapse’ of NATO.

The mistake is that it is not for Moscow to say this to Western audiences. It is for Western journalists to say this on their own.  And they are doing that without any ‘help’ from the Kremlin. Today’s ‘New York Times’ has on the front page of its print edition in Europe an opinion piece by a guest writer who argues that it is a mistake for Europe to try to escape from ongoing deindustrialization by investing heavily in European military production. The author says that the hopes that such massive spending will free Europe from its dependence on the USA for its defense and will revitalize European economies are ‘delusory.’

On the other hand, when the Kremlin calls for the West to undo the plans for higher military budgets, saying this is self-destructive, it gives a bad name to all of those in the West who are saying precisely that on our own. We instantly become ‘stooges of Moscow.’

Transcript submitted by a reader

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hdLwjoRuonU

NewsX: 0:02
For our top story, we start in Europe, where Russia’s Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov has warned that NATO’s push to increase defence spending could backfire. Speaking in Moscow, Lavrov says the move may lead to the catastrophic collapse of the alliance. He added that NATO should be guided by common sense rather than escalating spending. NATO leaders recently agreed to raise defence spending to five percent of GDP over the next decade, a target driven by US President Donald Trump’s demands for increased burden sharing. Meanwhile, Russia says it plans to cut military spending next year despite a current defense budget that makes up 6.3 percent of GDP, its highest since the Cold War.

Lavrov’s comments came in response to Polish foreign minister, Radoslaw Sikowski, who warned an arms race could trigger Putin’s fall. Russia continues to dismiss claims that it would attack a NATO member, but the tensions reflected deep divisions over security and spending priorities across Europe.

1:07
We’re now joined by Gilbert Doctorow, who is a Russian affairs expert, and he joins us live from Brussels. Gilbert, thank you for joining us on the program. Putin has reiterated his ambition for peace over and over again. However, if Russia does really want peace, why does it spend over six percent on GDP on its military, the highest since the Cold War, while telling NATO to use common sense and spend less?

Gilbert Doctorow, PhD: 1:35
Well I think during the Cold War, Russia, particularly at the end of the Cold War, Russia wasn’t at war with anyone. So it’s understandable that its military budget would have been lower than today. If a country is in the middle of a fierce war for its own existence, as Russia says it is today, it’s understandable they would spend a large amount of their GDP on a war. So that isn’t the issue.

The promise to bring it down, well, that assumes, I suppose, that Russia will win the war with Ukraine in this time period, and so can afford to scale back its military budget. So long as the war is going on, as fiercely as it is today, I think it is improbable that any cut in the Russian budget would be realistic.

NewsX: 2:25
It’s evident this hike in defence spending is because of fears of aggression. And how can Moscow dismiss these fears when much of the international community claims that Russia has invaded or intervened in countries like Georgia and also regions of Crimea and Ukraine all of which used to be in Moscow’s sphere. What are your thoughts on that, Gilbert?

Doctorow:
I think that the current Information War offensive by Russia– And I say that because Mr. Lavrov’s remarks are in sync with what President Putin was saying yesterday. And I can tell you that on major talk shows like Vladimir Solovyov’s talk show last night panelists were almost hysterical about the dangers being posed to Russia by the increased military spend projected for NATO. The Russians are engaging in an information war, you can call it propaganda, which is the old word we use for this sort of thing.

3:24
And that’s a mistake, because they are very poor at propaganda. They don’t do it very well, not nearly as well as the United States and the West does. So they’re talking themselves blue, but I don’t think they will have any real impact on what’s going on in Europe, which is faced with its own internal contradictions and really does not react to anything that Moscow says. The agreed-upon increase in spending in Europe, in NATO last week was an empty exercise as anybody who seriously looks at it knows. The European countries cannot raise their military budgets, and that includes Germany, where the government will fall if Mr. Merz proceeds with his ambitious plans to introduce a draft, which is what his defense minister was calling for a week ago. Therefore, the threat coming from Europe is by no means as real as the Russians are now pretending it is. And it would be better if they just shut up.

NewsX: 4:30
Okay. Lavrov calls NATO’s collapse possibly catastrophic. One of the reasons why this conflict started was, of Ukraine, the possibility that it would join the North Atlantic Treaty Organization. Is this a threat, or does Moscow actively hope for NATO to fall apart?

Doctorow:
Well, of course it hopes that it will fall apart. There was a peculiar choice of words by Lavrov, “catastrophic”. Catastrophic for whom? Certainly not for the Russians. And it is a hyperbolic statement. It’s an exaggerated statement. In the worst-case scenario, NATO will not collapse catastrophically. It will downsize, it will break up into pieces that become part of the European Union’s defence.

But the different forces and equipment that NATO now has will not disappear. They will be integrated or reintegrated in the European defense, in the worst-case scenario. So Mr. Lavrov’s choice of words was very peculiar.

NewsX: 5:41
Yes indeed. He also claimed that Russia will cut its military spending down from the 6.3 percent it’s currently at. Why should anyone believe Russia’s claim while, [on] spending the next year, while still fighting this costly war in Ukraine?

Doctorow:
Well, as I said a moment ago, the hidden assumption of that statement that was made by President Putin and is repeated by his foreign Minister, the hidden assumption, is that the war will end because Russia will win, because Ukraine will capitulate. Now, that is the assumption. Nobody, he isn’t saying that.

But if it is true, if that happens, then of course Russia will scale back its military expenditures. If it does not happen and the war goes on, then of course Russia will continue to spend it at its present level, if not even more.

NewsX: 6:40
Gilbert Doctorow, thank you very much for joining us on the programme and for your insights.

Transcript submitted by a reader
Diesen
Hi everyone and welcome. Today we’re joined again by Gilbert Doctorow, an historian and international affairs analyst and also the author of War Diaries, the Russia-Ukraine War in which I’ll put a link in the description. And I’m actually reading this book myself at the moment, which is a big book and more or less an encyclopedia of the war itself. So yeah, definitely a book to recommend. Welcome to the program.
Doctorow
Thank you

Diesen.

 The reason I wanted to talk with you today was about the NATO Summit. And also what this means for the future of NATO because previous NATO summits have usually been about, well at least in the past years, have been almost all about Ukraine. Otherwise it’s been about common values or collective security But this year it seemed to be all about paying tribute to Trump. And after all this display of unconditional loyalty and obedience, Trump more or less left without any further commitments. So it was quite extraordinary.

And So I was wondering what you make of this summit and what does it tell you about the future of NATO? Is this, as some people argue, a dead man walking?

Doctorow

I think you have to concentrate on Mr. Trump and what he was hoping to achieve, and I believe he did achieve at this summit. Because the main activity of the member states, the leaders of the member states, was to prevent a catastrophe, some scandal, getting into a fight with Donald, leaving him unhappy, exposing him to people he didn’t want to see in front of cameras, meaning Zelensky.

So there was a damage control exercise by the member states of NATO with Mark Rutte, the secretary general in charge of that, and exposing himself to widespread condemnation for fawning over Trump. Trump lapped it all up. He was happy as can be. But I’d like to move away from the psychological portraits, which is unfortunately what nearly all of our peers pay attention to. And I’d like to look at the business part of it, which I think is intrinsic in your question.

On the business side, Trump got what he wanted. They signed on the dotted line, all countries except Spain, signed on the dotted line, committing themselves to this 5% of GDP available for financing the military, the defense budgets. It should be achieved within 10 years. The point of is, which so many pro-Atlanticist publications are saying, demonstrates the solidarity of NATO. Yes, there’s solidarity going down like a stone in the sea.

The answer to your brief question, is this the end of NATO? No, it isn’t. NATO will linger for some time. What does this signify then? It signifies the off-ramp for Donald Trump and the United States. By that I mean, by having these countries all commit to put up several trillion dollars or euros in defense spending in the coming decade, he has cleared the way for the United States to downsize, to downscale its contribution to NATO, which has been traditionally two-thirds of the overall budget of NATO.

And that is unsustainable politically in the United States when the mood is running in favor of Trump and there’s a slight isolationist mood in the United States. He’s not going to pull out. He cannot pull out of NATO. That would require the two-thirds majority vote in Congress, which he does not have and he knows very well that he doesn’t have it.

But he can reduce American contributions, freeing up the American military budget for other engagements, particularly in the Far East and for technology development in his unfortunately announced Golden Dome project.

So in that respect, this was political theater. Now this was the second run at political theater that we’ve seen from Donald Trump in the last 10 days. The first run was his staging the attack on the three nuclear sites in Iran, which has received enormous attention, even to the present. The last, yesterday’s news in major media were all about whether Donald Trump lied. Of course.

What does that mean? What does it say about America’s defense if the president is lying and his associates were all lying about an issue of great importance bearing on national defense?

 And then they get into the personal psychoanalysis of Mr. Trump, which they always use as a feeding fest for many of the commentators of major media. Regrettably, Glenn, also for many of the commentators in alternative media. I’m very disappointed to see my peers follow the big boys in the major media into this dead end.

Unfortunately, the dead end is not arbitrary. It is totally characteristic of the way we in the West look at international developments and personalize everything. Russia is run by one man whose name is Vladimir Putin. He grew up as kind of a slum kid, fighting, scrapping in the yards, and then he went on to a KGB career, and that’s all we have to know about him. And then, of course, they all engage in various psychological portraits of Donald Trump as a man who lies whenever he can, wherever he can.

I was just picking up and re-reading J.D. Salinger’s Catcher in the Rye. And there, my goodness, there was a portrait of Donald Trump, Holden Caulfield, who never, never misses the opportunity to lie when he could otherwise tell a straight story. However, this leads us nowhere. That is missing the point of statesmanship and what you accomplish as a country’s leader.

I said the West falls into this trap of layman’s psychoanalysis, which even professional psychoanalysts will tell you is a very risky thing to do remote when the patient isn’t sitting on a couch in front of you. But I described that as the West. Why did I say the West? Because in the East, particularly in the Soviet Union, when Marxist dialectic was predominant in shaping people’s minds in higher education. They always distinguish between the subjective and the objective.

We in the West are looking wholly at the subjective. What did Donald want? What does this one want? And we’re not looking at what was the consequence of their action. And so we get trapped in speculation, mad speculation, which is not productive.

In the instance, looking at what he did in Hague, everyone’s talking about the fawning on him, on how he was gratified and how he smiled to this one or shook hands with that one. I’m sorry, these are irrelevancies. The piece of business he had to do he did. And whether he was aware consciously that he was planning that this would be an exit ramp, we don’t know. To say it, it’s speculation.

But what he did is not speculation. He prepared the way for an exit. Just as what he did in Iran. I don’t know what he wanted, nobody does. They convey, the main discussion is carried out as it is mostly by the press who are deeply anti-Trump and are looking for anything to prove that the man is unworthy of office.

Well, that’s good for them. It’s not good for us, the American public, because they’re working against the national interests for the sake of partisanship. What counts is what did he do, what he did in Iran, which he saved Israel from self-destruction. And that is the point.

Well, and they always were speculating, oh, this is just a temporary truce, that Israel will again go back on the offensive. Well, they haven’t read Larry Johnson’s article in his Sonar yesterday in which he set out on a map exactly what was destroyed in Israel, which was half the country, half the strategic assets of Israel. A few more days and there would have been no strategic assets left. This is what Donald Trump must have known when he made that decision to make a phony bombing raid on phony assets in Iran. And whether there is enriched uranium left in the hands of the Iranian regime or not is frankly speaking irrelevant to the considerations of Washington right now.

They had to get Israel out of this, while there was still something to save of Israel. And if that meant giving up the whole argument about Iranian enrichment and the Iranian bomb, well, they just gave it up. Trump as much as said that he doesn’t give a damn what he does sign or doesn’t sign with the Iranians. That the issue is over.

Now, that’s how it is with the summit.  Let’s look at the consequences. The consequences will come up in the coming months as we see the United States almost certainly scaling back its contributions to NATO.

Diesen

Well, I agree with your approach because the key focus, I guess, in the media is that Trump is a narcissist. He likes to relish in this. And I also think that this is, well, it’s relevant to the extent that European leaders, they believe that this is a way they can control him or manipulate that is just, you know, feed his ego and then we can make him do what we want kind of thing.

But I agree this is pure psychological approach. It’s good for explaining perhaps what Europeans are doing, but doesn’t get the whole picture because while Trump indeed most likely is very much a narcissist, it’s also worth noting that the strategic thinking has been quite consistent. If you watch his participation on talk shows, Larry King Live,  since the 1980s, he was always expressing concern about the alliance system. That is, yes, the alliance system might elevate the United States to leadership position, but it had too great of a cost. That is, financing all of its allies would run the US into bankruptcy.

So he kept using the word, you know, they’re treating us like a sucker. And it’s a reasonable argument that the empire isn’t sustainable. Again, you want a proper return on investment of empire if it should be sustainable over time. So the idea that others should pay for US protection and it shouldn’t be an expense, this is something he’s been saying for 40 plus years now. So to just dismiss this as him being all about, you know, well, he just wants people to, you know, throw compliments at him, I think we might be deluding ourselves.

But what he kind of keeps saying is not that different from what a lot of other American leaders have said over the decades. That is that Europeans should pay more for security, but no one really pushed it that hard. But all of this is more relevant today, I guess, given that the strategic focus of the United States is going to other places of the world. Again beginning under Obama’s pivot to Asia in 2010.

But he seems to have achieved some of this by asking for 5% expenditures on weapons by the Europeans and ideally by American weapons. It’s two things achieved. One, the Europeans are now paying America given that they have to buy American weapons. But the second would be that the Europeans acquire more, well, they take more responsibility for their own security, which enables the United States to reduce its commitment. But this is where I want to ask you about the contradiction, if you will, because in Europe, the idea is, you know, if we pay more for security, we do what Trump’s tells us, then he will be happy with us.

And, you know, we feed his ego and then he will stay in Europe. Or as Mark Rutte has written, you know, he wants to keep the family together. But we seem to neglect that we might achieve the opposite. If we keep increasing our military expenditure to increase our own stock value for the Americans, the Americans are able to say that Europe is now able to defend itself and then reduce the commitments. Do you see the same contradiction in the thinking between the Americans and the Europeans?

Doctorow
Well, you’re touching on the other side of the issue, which I didn’t get to. What Trump was achieving, he was getting them to commit to something which everyone knows they cannot fulfill. That doesn’t mean they say it. The only people who said it publicly were the Spanish. And they came out and refused to sign this on the dotted line because they said it’s not workable for them.

The fact is it’s not workable for anybody. The signal about the falseness of all of this commitment is a 10-year timeline. Ten years in politics is eternity. Most everyone who is in that room will not be in office. Some of them won’t be alive altogether within ten years.

And so when you put a timeline like that without having in place measured markers for achievement, then you’re saying it will not happen. Everyone kicks the can down the road. That’s how politics works. So that’s generally, without even looking at the particulars of this case, the specifics of the situation in one country after another, this was an empty promise. But let’s look at the case by case, because it’s very relevant to where we are today and what’s going to happen in the immediate future, not 10 years from now.

I live in Belgium. In Belgium, we had a demonstration the day before the opening of the Hague Summit. 35,000 people came out in the streets of Brussels. 35,000. That’s a lot for Belgian demonstrations that aren’t about this or that piddling change in pension laws.

And they were against rearmament, against an introduction of a draft. That’s a sign, just a straw in the wind. The bigger issue is that even Bart De Wever, the prime minister, admitted after the summit that it’s improbable that Belgium can reach these new targets. He was saying that because otherwise his government’s going to fall. If he proceeds beyond the present chicanery with the 2025 budget where they’re doing exactly what that extra 1.5% in the 5% is all about –  labeling infrastructure investments in roads and bridges as defense and putting that into their budget to reach 2% since Belgium is only at 1.3% today as a percent of GDP for its military budget.

To go beyond the 1.3% to say 3.5% which is for hard military spending is not possible. There’s no wiggle room in Belgium for finances. Neither to raise taxes nor to raise credits because the country is over-indebted. So it can only come at the expense of social benefits, and everybody knows what that means. That is political suicide for any Belgian government. For that reason, here in Belgium, the commitment was absolutely hollow.

Now let’s look at the big neighbor because Germany is really the driving force of the rearmament program, even more than loud mouted Macron since Merz actually has money to put there whereas Macron just has words. In the case of Germany, yes, they can put up a trillion dollars, as their chancellor has said. And Merz knows where he gets the money. So that isn’t the issue.

He can’t get the men. That is the issue. To have the equipment, to have more tanks rolling out and more drones produced is fine, but if there’s nobody to operate the new equipment, then you’re back where you started. You have no army to speak of. And we know that German volunteer recruitment was advertised for more than a month by the Defense Minister Pistorius producing almost negligible results. Something like 500 men, women signed up to join.

Pistorius himself said that if an all-out effort at recruiting volunteers does not pay off, the country will be obliged to introduce a military draft. That touched off a left-right divide in German politics.

There was an excellent article in yesterday’s Financial Times describing the signing of a manifesto against rearmament by a certain Mr.Peter Brandt, the elder son of the chancellor best known for introducing the Ostpolitik, Willy Brant. So Peter Brant was a signatory.

The article went on to explain the Brandt’s comments in general about how and why Russia should be, once again, taken up as a partner for Germany and not as the enemy, reintroducing the elements of his father’s Ostpolitik or new eastern policy. They went on to explain the rest of his logic, which unfortunately was very badly informed. He was saying that Russia really isn’t so strong, it’s taking three years to do anything in Ukraine, so therefore they’re not a threat. Well, of course, that’s complete rubbish. They are a threat. And they’re taking three years because that’s the way Mr. Putin wants to play the game, not because he can’t do otherwise.

Looking at solid reputable sources that are on the internet, WION, the largest international broadcaster of India with 9 million subscribers, they had a video on the internet yesterday explaining how the Russians have been using their upgraded missile Iskander-M to destroy American Patriot air defenses in and around Kiev, and how another rapid-fire rocket launcher, a kind of updated Katyusha, is now devastating the Ukrainian lines along the Donbas. There’s no question but that the Russians have the upper hand, they’re winning, and this comes out in articles of even the Russophobic Financial Times.

So the arguments that Mr. Brandt adduced are not correct and not well informed, but the fact that he has taken the lead, that his signature is on a new manifesto against rearmament is a new tipping point. Mr. Scholz introduced a tipping point in the last year of his chancellorship, that is that Germany no longer could cultivate relations with Russia, but that Russia was an enemy and that Germany must rearm and prepare for confrontations with Russia in the future. That was one turning point. Now we’re seeing another one, a turning point against that last turning point.

This manifesto was against rearmament, as I said. And although the SPD, the Social Democrats of Germany, have a majority which supports Pistorius in rearmament and in a draft, there is a very strong minority against. This is not my characterization. This was the remark of the pro-NATO Financial Time. And that the government can fall because it only has a majority of 17 votes in the parliament; so if a minority of the SPD vote against their own party, the government will fall. And that will be the end of Mr. Merz because he’s very unpopular. Should they go to the elections again, there’ll be somebody else who replaces him within the Christian Democrats. So Germany is at a tipping point, and that is of decisive importance for this commitment that was made in their name at the NATO summit by the most important military and industrial country in Europe.

For all of these reasons, the summit may be the last of its kind. The fact that only Spain came out against this doesn’t tell you anything. I think that Mr. Orban and Mr. Fico are also against it, but caution tells them not to oppose Brussels on everything. If all you need is one member to stand up and say what you want to say, it’s good enough. And Spain was that member this time.

Diesen

Yeah. Well, I guess it does make sense for everyone to stand up, given that Trump also threatened to punish Spain for not falling in line. But it is extraordinary though, the lack of pursuit of national interest, because Germany can change their government, but no government can survive unless they’re going to start to address basic national interests.

And for Germany, the great irony of making Russia their main enemy is if you want a competitive German economy, you do need to link up with the Russian economy. If Germany wants security, it really needs to also address Russian security, that is, overcome this effort to create a Europe without the Russians. And also, if you want a politically relevant Germany, you can’t have a Europe re-divided, remilitarized, because it will go from being a subject to an object of international security. So I don’t see how another election in Germany is going to fix this problem unless they begin to look a bit more honestly at what their actual national interest is versus policy.

So we’re at this position now where the Europeans are pretending to arm themselves to prevent the Americans from leaving, which is actually enabling the US from leaving.

They don’t have the economic power to do this. As you said, they don’t have the public support for this. They’re not able to mobilize the men to manage the equipment, which they can’t build, at least not in time. But even if they were able to do all these things, you know, the basic foundations of the security competition, which dictates international security, suggests that Russia’s not simply going to capitulate. We’re not going to restore a new hegemonic peace.

Russia will respond in some way. So how do you see Russia reacting to the Europeans seeking to arm themselves to the teeth?

Doctorow

I’ll respond to that in one second, but I’d like to take one step back to the question of NATO’s future existence and what that means more broadly. Because of the work of von der Leyen and her associates, NATO and the EU have become synonymous. They are so intertwined.

And that is deadly for the EU. If NATO goes down, the EU goes down with it. The whole glue of NATO is the Russian enemy and thanks to von der Leyen, the glue of the EU is the Russian enemy. So the consequences of this, what we just described, of a changing political balance in Germany, we went from Germany’s vote in the summit to what’s happening internally in Germany as a result of this position. And it’s not just a consequence for Germany, it’s for the whole EU.

But now the answer to your question, the big question, how does Russia react?

And here’s where it is amazing that the thinking is so poor within the EU and within NATO. The thinking is poor because there’s no debate, because there’s censorship, because all of this works against producing well thought out solutions or proposals. If there is no contest, intellectual contest pro and con for any of these major policies like the present rearmament policy, it can only be a very poor policy. And that’s what we see. The Europeans have not debated what rearmament will mean.

You spoke about buying American weapons. That’s a large part of it. But weapons for what? It’s already been demonstrated in the last two weeks to anybody, for anybody with eyes to see that the notion of air defense against the latest generation of missiles is utter nonsense, it is throwing money down the drain. You cannot resist them.

The logic is if you cannot resist the enemy, then come and talk to them and find some solutions, some that everyone can live with. Now the other thing: even if we were turned away from the money that is supposed to be spent on air defense, the general building of muscle, of conventional muscle so that Europe had an advantage like in its relations with the Soviet Union. To do that today is possible. The money can be found, as Germany is demonstrating, but what will be the net result? The net result will not be the defeat or a negotiating advantage over Russia.

Russia has nuclear weapons that are entirely capable of deterring any possible European invasion of the Russian Federation. The idea of dealing Russia a strategic defeat is utterly stupid. And why is it stupid? Not because people advocating this are individually stupid, but because there is no debate in which the flaws of their reasoning could be brought to their attention and everyone else’s attention.

Diesen

 I noticed also that Medvedev went out and argued that no longer would Russia accept Ukraine in the European Union.

I think it was repeated by Sergey Lavrov as well, which has been many people seen as a possible compromise that is Ukraine has to remain neutral, but it can join the European Union. But this is one of the problems of making the EU indistinguishable from NATO or this geopolitical EU, which von der Leyen is trying to build, that the Russians now see the Europeans as being more hostile than the Americans, which has kind of switched the script a bit.

But do you think this will be significant or, well, that Ukraine is never going to join the EU to begin with, I guess, given that even some of their closest partners, such as Poland, would oppose this, much like the Hungarians or the Slovaks.

Doctorow

I think raising this question of Russia is not happy any more to envisage Ukraine within the EU takes us back to 2014 when the Kiev government was overthrown because Yanukovich waffled, was undecided whether to take the $15 billion, I think, that Putin offered him for economic assistance if he stayed out of the arms of the EU and the EU’s insistence that he sign the strategic cooperation with the EU and enter onto a path of eventually joining.

The reason why the Russians were so upset is exactly the same as what you just said of Medvedev now. That within the agreements for close cooperation with the EU there were secret annexes, and not so secret annexes. The one that’s not so secret was the requirement that the new country align its foreign policy with the EU. The secret part was they aligned their military policy with the EU. And that was, of course, totally unacceptable to the Russians.

And it remains so today. So although we may have heard some remarks in the past year or two that suggested that Russia didn’t really care about it, I don’t think they reflected the reality within Russia itself, within the strategic thinkers of Russia ove, what EU membership for Ukraine could entail. It’s not joining a military alliance as such, but actually it is de facto because of all the security cooperation that would come with EU membership.

Diesen

Yeah, I remember in 2014, this was sold in Europe as a trade agreement with Ukraine and almost focusing on student exchanges, something where it is kind of harmless things.

But it did have, I think was 14 or 17 articles where it, which addressed foreign policy in which Ukraine’s foreign policy would have to be brought into line with the European Union. And for EU that’s becoming increasingly anti-Russian in nature, it’s yeah, this becomes problematic and also could be used obviously as a stepping stone to NATO or make it a de facto NATO state. But if the Europeans would be successful in this development of weapons, how do you see this affecting the nuclear weapons policies of Russia? Because the Russians have already now begun to lower the threshold for nuclear weapons. And often this is, well, historically, this is often seen as loosening up the use of nuclear weapons for a skewed balance of power.

That is, during the Cold War when the Soviets had the superior conventional forces, NATO opened up for the first use of nuclear weapons. That is, if a conventional attack would threaten their existence, then they could use weapons, nuclear weapons first. After the Cold War and the collapse of the Soviet Union, when the Soviets or then the Russians were severely weakened, suddenly NATO had overwhelming superiority in conventional capabilities. We saw it flipped and suddenly the Russians put it into the nuclear doctrine that they could use nuclear weapons first if their existence was threatened. So what exactly would be achieved by arming Europe to the teeth?

Is this supposed to be a deterrent or do they imagine these weapons being used in an actual fight with Russia? So, because it was only deterrent, the nuclear weapon seems to be sufficient. So, what is the thought here? Is it going to impact any war fighting in the future?

Doctorow
Well, the policy or doctrine relating to the insubordination of nuclear weapons is variable and changes over time in accordance with perceived threats.

And as you say, the, we can call them great equalizers– nuclear weapons are the great equalizer. The side that has less power in conventional war-making will opt for the great equalizer to defend itself or to create a deterrent against the side which has superiority in numbers and quality of its conventional forces. The Russians already tipped their hand. You don’t have to guess about this. When there was talk, when Mr. Starmer of Britain and Emmanuel Macron of France were speaking and putting together a coalition of the willing, numbering some 50,000 troops they would send nominally as peacekeepers to Ukraine, the Russians reacted and said that they saw this as hostile, they saw this as leading to an attack on their positions– and that they had no intention of going into trench warfare with the French and the British. They would instead use tactical nuclear weapons to destroy a whole lot of them at one blow. So that’s the answer to the question. Yes, of course, if Russia is threatened by a million or more well-armed Europeans, it will respond with tactical nuclear weapons.

Diesen
My last question, which is, what do you think will happen to NATO if it loses the proxy war in Ukraine, or to reframe it, when NATO loses this proxy war? What is going to happen to NATO itself? Beause it appears that, yeah, a lot of the political credibility has been gambled on this that we went all in. So, again, I always make the point, no academics like to stare into their crystal ball as there’s too many, you know, uncertain variables. But what do you expect at least?

Doctorow
Well, in its present form it will cease to exist. I think the Americans will leave NATO eventually. Of course, that will take some time, some changing in American opinion, in the political leadership in Congress, how they view America’s participation and how they view the whole global empire, whether it was a net plus or a net negative for American interests and for the American economy, I think that will change over time. But in the immediate future, NATO will not disappear, but it will fragment and elements of it will probably be incorporated into the defense that the European Union puts together for itself. They’re not going to just cast aside what they have, they will just redesignate it as what is already evident in the concept of the EU that von der Lryen has put in place as being a major geopolitical force in the world and not just an economic force.

So the pieces will be picked up and reintegrated into the EU. But I am hopeful that the political cataclysm that the final defeat of Ukraine will bring about in Europe will change the balance of power within the European Parliament and will lead to the removal or resignation of the von der Leyen team, the majority coming from the European People’s Party that has been so destructive in the last decade of the whole notion of the EU as a peace project. For that reason, I say there will be identifiable pieces of today’s NATO that will continue forever, but under new overall management that will be EU management and not the present NATO structure.

Diesen

Yeah, I do hope that the people who sacrificed Ukraine over the past decade to fight Russia would be held accountable so there’s some possibility for policy change. But as I suggested before, first there needs to be some opening for some, you said, intellectual competition to shape a more rational foreign policy.

But maybe the defeat in Ukraine would create the conditions for this. So yeah, thank you so much for letting me pick your brain and yeah, hope you’ll come back on soon.

Well, Thank you.

This 45 minute discussion with Professor Glenn Diesen provided an excellent opportunity to expand on various conclusions about Trump and political theater that I have first put out in brief in the past couple of weeks.

There is my critique of the Western habit in both mainstream and alternative media to direct all attention to lay psychoanalysis of Trump based on his words instead of considering what have been the geopolitical consequences of his actions. My colleagues often do not differ from CNN presenters when they tell their audiences that Trump is a narcissist, that he is manipulated by X or Y and that his intentions are sinister, to enrich himself and little more. They feast on his lies which, in the case of the ‘obliteration’ of Iranian nuclear sites, have behind them raison d’etat, the salvation of the State of Israel from the latest results of the war of aggression against Iran unleashed by Benjamen Netanyahu, namely the utter destruction of much of Israel’s defense establishment as well as of its office and residential towers in Tel Aviv and elsewhere as demonstrated by Larry Johnson in his latest Sonar blog.

By harping on the fact that Iran may have moved centrifuges and enriched uranium away from the sites before the Trump attack, these analysts in mainstream and independent media are, objectively speaking, spreading sedition and arguing for renewed attacks on Iran and never ending war.

As for the NATO summit, I argue here that its main achievement, namely the agreement of the NATO Member States to raise their defense budgets to 5% by 2035, sets the stage for reduced American contributions to NATO. This may not be the same as a U.S. withdrawal from NATO but it can be a fairly good approximation, depending on Trump’s budgets for the years remaining in his term of office. This, in turn, puts NATO on a fast track to collapse, since European contributions will de facto not rise much if at all: the Member States simply cannot raise taxes or take loans sufficient to meet the new military obligations and they cannot find the funds by cutting other budgetary categories, meaning social benefits, because that spells political suicide.

I add here to previous mention of the problems Germany faces to realize the rearmament program that Chancellor Merz has set out. As yesterday’s ‘Financial Times’ discusses in an excellent front page article, there is growing resistance to rearmament within the German SPD (Socialist) party. Although a majority supports the plans of Merz and his Defense Minister Pistorius, a ‘substantial minority’ oppose these plans, including the prominent deputy Peter Brandt, the eldest son of Chancellor Willy Brandt, who set in motion the Ostpolitik (détente) in the 1970s.

Peter Brandt is probably the most visible signatory of a Manifesto against the rearmament that is now being circulated in Germany. The FT notes that the ruling coalition of CDU and SPD only has a slim 17 vote majority in the Bundestag, so that a revolt by some Socialists can bring down the government. Given Merz’s present unpopularity, any successor government will have a very different complexion.

One can say that we are witnessing now a new Turning Point in German political history when the Turning Point declared by Scholz a little more than a year ago, meaning the rejection of all accommodation with Russia and assignment to it of enemy status, is itself about to be thrown out.

To this, I add the observation that under present circumstances, the sinking of NATO also means the sinking of the European Union. Thanks to the work of Commission Chairwoman Ursula von der Leyen these past several years, the two have become virtually synonymous. Just as NATO has made fear and hatred of Russia the glue that keeps the Alliance alive, so von der Leyen and Team have made the very same fear and hatred the unifying theme of the European Union. Take that away, as will happen when the Russians conclude their erasing Ukraine as a military and political force, which we may well expect in the coming months, and the EU no longer has a reason to exist- at least no reason to exist under its present leadership in the Commission and in the Parliament. If it is to be saved, these people will have to go, either by voluntary resignation or by impeachment.

©Gilbert Doctorow, 2025

 

Enjoy the show:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yYPXP2aU_G8&t=4s

Transcript submitted by a reader

Napolitano: 0:34
Hi, everyone. Judge Andrew Napolitano here for “Judging Freedom”. Today is Thursday, June 26th, 2025. Professor Gilbert Doctorow joins us now. Professor Doctorow, thank you very much.

Let’s start with NATO since they’re not far from you and they were meeting this week; I guess many of them are still there. Can the NATO membership nations realistically spend five percent of their gross domestic product on defense, as they seem to have promised they will do as recently as yesterday.

Gilbert Doctorow, PhD: 1:14
Some people, myself included, have described the meeting in The Hague yesterday as political theater. And I think there’s a lot to it. It’s not just watching the Secretary General fawn over Donald Trump that makes this political theater. It’s what they all signed up to. They signed up to commitments that almost none of them can realize. And I think that is known, but it is ignored in the same way that the bombing mission in Iran was known by many people to have failed in terms of destroying the nuclear capabilities of Iran, but that was kept to the side because it gets in the way of the whole purpose of the political theater.

The theater was there not for us to have a good laugh at the expense of the Secretary General. The theater there was to do business, and it did it. It got a commitment from these countries, all member states of NATO, to something that, as I say, most of them can not achieve, for reasons that we can go into if we have the time. But that is not the end result. The end result is that Mr. Trump has created an exit ramp for the United States from NATO.

2:38
If these countries all are committed and signed in writing that they’re going to raise their contributions by several trillion dollars in the coming decade, the United States correspondingly, can reduce its commitment and its spending on NATO over that period. I don’t see anybody looking at that fact. And I think it is the same way as people are missing the real outcome of the political theater in Iran. It was not to amuse us, it was to do business. And the business was to shut up Mr. Netanyahu, to prepare the ceasefire, which he had to gratefully accept, though not graciously, and to save Israel from itself, something which I hope and expect Mr. Trump will use when he goes back to his donors and tells them, I just saved Israel for you. Now let’s get rid of Mr. Netanyahu.

Napolitano: 3:40
I want to address the latter part about Israel and Prime Minister Netanyahu in a minute, but just to circle back to NATO, if we could, your colleague on this show, Professor Glenn Diesen, has argued in agreeing with you that some of these NATO countries will use cooking the books to demonstrate to Trump that they’ve spent 5 percent. He gave the example of infrastructure, bridges and highways in Britain that will be suddenly put on the defense budget. I mean, this is really a joke if Trump and his people fall for it. Do you share Professor Diesen’s view that this kind of trickery will be engaged in by these countries?

Doctorow:
What you’re talking about was in today’s “Telegraph” in England. What I’m talking about took place six weeks earlier. Exactly that issue was raised in the pro-Atlanticist Belgian press. These are all rooting for NATO, but they are looking at the realities of political life in this country, in Belgium, and the reality is that their government has no wiggle room to sincerely follow through on any commitments it makes. This country already is the highest taxed in Europe, if not in the world. They cannot raise taxes and they cannot take loans, because the country is not in good standing with creditors; it has a very high indebtedness. So where are they going to get the money?

5:26
Only one place, by cutting social benefits. And that is political suicide. No government will stand when it starts doing that. We had a general strike yesterday. They are like wildcat strikes every few days here, national strikes of transport protesting the rather minimal cuts in social benefits that this new government that came into power in January has instituted. To go from where we are now in Belgium from 1.3 percent of GDP assigned for military to three and a half percent, which is the rock, the hard part of the 5% that everyone’s talking about, is beyond, is a bridge too far for Belgium, and not just for Belgium, for many other countries in the EU.

6:13
So they have given Mr. Trump an empty promise, but which satisfies his needs. His need is to find a graceful way to take the United States out of NATO, and they just gave it to him.

Napolitano:
But it’s not going to be realistic. I mean, if the United States leaves NATO and there’s substantial support over here for that, and as I can take the pulse, that will result in a significant diminution in spending for NATO. Let’s backtrack a little. Doesn’t Russia produce more armaments and projectiles than all of NATO combined?

Doctorow: 6:55
Oh, it does. This came out, I think, was even the Secretary General made this statement of within the past week, that Russia alone produces four times the projectiles that are so important for ground warfare, for warfare of attrition that we’re seeing now in Ukraine, four times what the United States and Europe combined produce. But just one step back, I overstated this.

When I said pull back from NATO, I didn’t mean leave it, he can’t. Legally, he can’t. That requires the approval of Congress. But to reduce the spending on NATO, he can. And that is what he’s now been given.

Napollitano: 7:34
Right. I may have misspoken also. I meant reduce spending. He would love to leave NATO, but it’s a treaty and it would require rescission by a two-thirds vote of the Senate. I don’t think he would get that.

Doctorow:
No.

Napolitano:
Right. Now you, in your wonderful page-long missives that you sent have pointed out something I haven’t heard from anybody else. If NATO does increase its spending, what will the reaction in the Kremlin be?

Doctorow:
Well, what I was saying is that if they could do this, which they can’t, but for argument’s sake, if they could increase their contributions to defense budgets across the EU, across the NATO countries, and raised several trillion dollars in the next decade, then they would be digging their own graves.

Because we have to look at the last 40 years of history to understand that there has been on each side, Russia, Soviet Union as it was, on the east and western Europe and United States and NATO on the other side, they have looked this way and that way, as what kind of a military doctrine and strategy they have to have, given their appraisal of the other side. In the late 1970s and early 1980s– before Russia started to weaken and collapse, or Soviet Union under Gorbachev finally culminating in the December 1991 collapse of the Soviet Union, disintegration of it– before all that, when theSoviet Union was still relatively strong, the final period of Brezhnev, the beginning of the ’80s, the Russians looked at NATO with alarm. It had maybe a million men in arms, it had vast numbers of tanks, it had all kinds of military hardware in greater abundance and higher quality than they did. Well, in the 19th century, in the shootouts, you have the equalizer.

9:45
The fellow who is the weaker side could be the winner in a duel if he had a better gun. Well, the equalizer in our age was nuclear weapons. Russia understood that it could not withstand the full invasion by NATO. And so it built an arsenal of tactical nuclear weapons that are unique in size and in variety to meet every eventuality. Now, In the 21st century, under Mr. Putin, the situation has reversed itself. Europe’s profiting from the end of the Soviet Union, and it cut back its military expenses or funding and its arms production drastically, to the point where Germany today has an army that’s not worth talking about. That’s not my appraisal; it’s what they’re saying among themselves publicly. They are one-third the number of men at arms that they were in the 1990s. And we know that their tanks hardly work. They have zero, no effective air defense.

11:00
So Europe is really exposed by its own choice, because until the hyperactive propaganda of the Russian threat came into effect after 2008, Europe rightly understood that there was no threat from the East, so why would they spend their money on all this hardware and keep so many men at arms? They didn’t. Now, in this present situation, this situation has flip-flopped from where it was in the 1980s. The Russians have the best European army, the best equipped, best trained, and the best war experienced.

Europe is weak militarily. Under these circumstances, okay, the Russians really have no intention of doing anything. We discussed this on your program in the past. The notion of a Russian threat is absolutely empty. They’ll be quite happy to solve the problem in Ukraine and then to go back to their knitting.

Napolitano: 12:01
Do the European leaders make the same domino nonsensical argument that Joe Biden made, Vladimir Putin wants to take all of Ukraine and then he’s going to go up into Warsaw and then aim for Paris. Do they actually make this argument with a straight face in order to induce taxpayers to cough up more money or justify borrowing?

Doctorow:
I think they can do it with a straight face, because they’re talking to one another. The broad public doesn’t listen to them at all. The broad public is concerned about the price of fuel, for how it’s eating.

12:42
But I just want to finish the argument that we were on. If Russia, if Europe should build its muscles and do what the Russians read from the documents coming out of Brussels and Berlin and whatever, and build up their armed forces to pose again a threat of a million men against Russia, Russia is going to change its nuclear doctrine yet again and put heavy reliance on nuclear weapons. And we saw this. This is not my guessing. We saw this when Macron and Starmer were planning to put 50,000 soldiers into Ukraine in the “coalition of the willing”, supposedly, to enforce a ceasefire.

The Russians said loudly, “Gentlemen, we are not going to fight you in the trenches. We are not going to lose our soldiers trying to remove 50,000 of yours. We will bomb you out of existence in a few minutes.” That is the new reality. And if people in Berlin and London and Brussels aren’t watching that, they are asleep at the job.

Napolitano: 13:51
Chancellor, German Chancellor Merz has suggested he could spend a trillion dollars in a year. I mean, that’s an astounding amount of money. That’s what the US will be spending if Trump’s so-called Big, Beautiful Bill passes. A: is that realistic? B: does anybody believe him? C: where would he get the money?

Doctorow:
I’ll come to those questions, but I’d like to say what’s a bigger issue. When we speak about Ukraine and providing them with additional military equipment, people raise their hand and say, “But they don’t have any men.” And that’s my answer to your issue. He can spend a trillion and he can build more tanks and they can manufacture various types of air defenses which are useless against against hypersonic missiles, as we now know and as he should know.

Anyway, they can build all this military hardware, but he can’t find the soldiers They opened– they did an advertising campaign in Germany. They made it attractive for young men– and women– to enlist. And I think in a month they got about 500 recruits.

Napolitano:
Oh, good Lord.

Doctorow:
They needed–

Napolitano:
A drop in the bucket.

Doctorow:
They need a few hundred. They need 100,000, not 500. And Pistorius, in the last two or three days– Pistorius is a defense minister who was formerly a defense minister under the socialist government of Scholz– he came out saying that if we cannot get volunteers, we will be obliged to introduce a draft. Well, ladies and gentlemen, that will be the end of this coalition government. Mr. Pistorius may be a socialist, but he doesn’t speak for his party. His party said they will leave the coalition and the government will fall. If the government falls, well that is the end of this military build-up. As I said, without personnel, the hardware is useless.

Napolitano: 15:47
Got it, got it. What is the status of things in Ukraine? While the world’s eyes and the media’s attention has been focused on Israel, Iran and Trump’s bombing, what is happening on the ground in Ukraine, from your–

Doctorow:
Well something is happening. We’ve commented in the last few weeks that the conflict in the Middle East had certain benefits for Russia, in that the United States withdrew various air defense systems, took them to the Middle East to safeguard its own military bases in the Gulf states, and that the United States stopped, essentially stopped supplying materiel to Ukraine because it was saving, hoarding it for Israel and any other eventuality in that region. But there’s something else we haven’t talked about.

16:41
The Russians have become much more aggressive and hard-punching in their ongoing battle in Ukraine. The strikes on Kiev were much more severe than anything in the last three years, strikes in the last two weeks, I mean. The reasons are clear. Not only do they not have anything resembling an air defense. But the Russians are not getting bad publicity.

Russia and its “crimes against humanity” in Ukraine, its “barbarism”, to take the words out of Mr. Starmer. Hey, that’s gone to page 20 in the newspaper. On the front page, all we read about is the devastation that each of the parties, Iran and Israel, are visiting on one another. And Russia is getting a free ride to do what has to be done in Ukraine.

Napolitano: 17:35
How much longer can Zelensky last?

Doctorow:
As long as they let him. He’s not going anywhere until and unless the United States throws him under the bus, which may well happen. But at present, the people around him– let’s make this clear: he’s not the only, he’s not a singular madman. The people who were there in power before him are saying virtually the same thing.

Whether it’s Poroshenko, who was immediately before Zelensky came to power. Sorry, not immediately before, but he was in the camp, the camp Zelensky before. Then Timoshenko, these are big names. They’re in the Rada, they’re in the parliament and they would be, you can look at them as well. Do we have an alternative to Mr. Zelensky if he’s pushed out? Among the politicians, we don’t. The only place where you could possibly find reason would be in the military.

Napolitano: 18:49
What is your view as to who prevailed in the Israeli-Iran-US 12-day kerfuffle that ended with Trump’s bombs?

Doctorow:
I think we’re all seeing that when we tune on YouTube. Let’s face it. Israel had a very strict military censorship which prevented the Western journalists, whether they were Reuters or the BBC or CNN, they were in Israel, but they could not report on Israel. They could not show images of the destruction around them. You had some small piddling videos of this apartment having been hit or the glass shattered — rubbish.

19:30
As we now are seeing, just go to YouTube and you will see not fake news but real images of major residential and business towers in Tel Aviv that are shattered, that will have to be torn down because they’re no longer structurally sound. You see, you’re beginning to see the same images coming from Haifa. We had, my own inputs, I don’t have, like Colonel McGregor, I don’t have military counterparts who exchange information with me. But I am on Indian radio, television. I watch closely a couple of these international broadcasters who are respectable. There are a lot of fake news outlets in India, but there are several very respectable ones.

20:19
And they’ve been, from their own sources, providing information. And then there are the Russians. And I don’t mean Russians who are sitting in Russia; I mean the Russians who are given the microphone living in Jerusalem, and they are emigres from Russia who are interviewed by Russian journalists.

Napolitano:
And what do they say?

Doctorow:
Well, their apartment has just been knocked out. In fact, the 25-year-long lead journalist of Russian state television was showing his apartment where all the glass was knocked out. You can imagine that the destruction is pretty widespread if even he was hit by it. And that’s not to talk about the real infrastructure, what electricity generating plants were doomed, what port facilities in Haifa were utterly destroyed.

21:08
And even without destruction, you’ve got the war risks that made Haifa useless. No merchant vessel would go near Haifa, given the risks of destruction. So the damage to the Israeli economy was very severe. It’s only now beginning to come out.

Napolitano:
The Israelis have one major international airport, Ben Gurion; it’s still closed.

Doctorow:
Yeah, they have suffered enormously. And you’ve mentioned this in your latest programs. The result of all this is in effect Israel lost the war. Now Donald Trump and the people around him saw and knew that. And that’s why I say that the theater that we saw, that we were exposed to, of empty shell sites in Iran having been hit, that was not just amusement and it was not an empty act. It was an act with a consequence that surely was planned.

22:12
And that is, namely, to take away from Mr. Netanyahu any reason to continue the war or to deny that Israel has lost it.

Napolitano:
What did the United States gain by that bombing?

Doctorow:
Well, here I agree with Colonel MacGregor. It’s keeping the United States out of deeper involvement. It was a– they bombed bases which were certainly known to have been emptied out. They did not intend to cause loss of life or casualties. I believe there was some advance notification that this was coming for the Iranians. And it’s the same thing that Iran did in its attack or counterattack on the American base in Qatar.

23:09
This was a 19th century duel. When your honor is compromised, as a gentleman you are obliged to pick up the glove that was thrown at your feet and to arrange with your seconds for a duel with pistols. But you were not obliged to kill your opponent. It was perfectly acceptable to fire in the air. That way you acquitted your humiliation and nobody was hurt. That’s what’s just happened now.

Napolitano:
Professor, a terrific analysis. Thank you very much for it. I just have images in my head of Aaron Burr and Alexander Hamilton in Weehawken, New Jersey. Hamilton must have expected that Burr would shoot in the air and of course he didn’t, and Hamilton died on the spot.

24:01
Oh well, we’ll see where this goes. But thank you very much for your analysis. Thank you for the notes that you keep sending. Very, very insightful. And we’ll look forward to seeing you again next week, my dear friend.

Doctorrow:
Yeah, it’s my pleasure. Thank you.

Napolitano:
Thank you. And coming up later today, two more of our heavyweights. By heavyweights, I mean a lot of you like to watch. At 11 o’clock this morning, Professor Jeffrey Sachs; and at 1 o’clock this afternoon, Professor John Mearsheimer.

24:29
Judge Napolitano for “Judging Freedom”.